speaker 1:  this call may be recorded press one to accept hello I wanted to find out if there was anything planned for Sam's birthday and if I was invited and if not if I could spend time with him all the time there well what day do you want to come did they plan for his birthday well on just a second hey sorry about that long you know since obviously we can't like invite other people over or we're just celebrating his birthday I told him we'd start Friday but he's wanting to bake cakes tomorrow so that they'll be ready to decorate on Friday all right I have the pinata at some point and but the bounce my mom had a bounce house certificate and they said if we used it on a Friday it's only one day but if you pick it up Saturday morning you get to keep it for 2 days so it's saying you might as well just wait and get it Saturday instead sir so just in terms of like eating cake might happen like on Friday it's bounce houses here on Saturday and Sunday and then I hadn't really decided about the pinata song to go out of my way to cram everything into one hour like you have two and you're having friends over but I can if you need me I can't if you need me to or I can try at least until probably won't need to take on Friday or you know you could do both you could you could tell me what time you're going to be home from work Friday and I'll say like blowing out the candles for Thursday and then do you I mean do you want to pick up and set up the bounce house or do you want me to do that Saturday morning I can do it okay you can do that. That way once you get it set up you can you know be the first to bounce the same on it okay and then the other thing was I kind of got the impression that your therapist is this trying to talk us into paying a divorce wage I don't know I mean I think the question I think the question why don't you get a divorce would be the right question to ask to figure out like why it's important to you to stay married and why it is worth it the strategy is to try and help us stay married at the kind of strange to me to ask that question at the first five minutes of 30 or therapy with somebody but I know a bunch of those relationship therapist view that as the primary role what talk people into splitting up may I know that's not his primary role I know that for sure so now I think he's trying to figure out how he can possibly help us but I'm you know what you picked up on for me is that I don't I don't see I don't see anything in you that's really wanting to fundamentally change really examine it really become more aware of what insecure I don't know I want to say insecurities I don't know what it is whatever it is that's going on inside of you that leads to you making really bad decisions and engaging really destructive Behavior I don't get the impression that that's your your goal when you talk about you know how you can say that when I spent the past month that's the demon now for almost five months doing just that I just it seems like everywhere you go you have this goal to get people to say that you're must be something wrong with your wife has been arrested thinking must be something wrong with your wife she always think she's right they have to tell us that was like your only goal today was to convince Matt that your wife can't see somebody else's perspective that's not what you you haven't been working the last four months and trying to figure out what your demons are and what causes you to break destructive behavior in fact you're not even trying because you don't see your behavior as destructive so if you don't see a problem by lots of destructive behavior and we've talked about it extensively I am I don't even know what you're talking about I really don't I don't I'm sorry I talked about the financial decisions that I made we talked about the time that I spend with our family we talked about 60 days off you have you told me that we haven't been you haven't been financially responsible that's what you told me you told me that it's because of you that we have such a high net worth and that net worth is with that wage which shows that you gather which shows that you've been financially responsible and that that by recalculating that once a week you were making sound financial decisions with their debts that's that's what I've been hearing from you posted that because that's I mean that's just data but I said that I've made decisions I didn't make sense I know exactly I've met individual decisions but overall haven't been financially responsible so I absolutely go to any with you I don't think they feel like you recognize is the team and that led to that extraordinary leadership of behavior I don't I think that you just think that you miscalculated a couple of times you don't see that every moment day and night life are awake while you were asleep everything you were doing every second was horrifically selfishly awful for your family hold on just a sec the decisions that I should not have made that work for a month but according to time away from the family do you want to say that that was some like teamwork group think that we both had and strategize together and it was equally off in my calculation and preference and decision and that's simply not the case you you don't look at the extent of which I had no said and if you're not willing to accept that I didn't have a choice in the matter anymore not really only thoughts that so it's not you can't say that I like actually have a voice or has ever been Allison said look at what happened when we took it asked him to quit his dad that's a great Point okay well look at what happened when we did ask him to try to cut back his our to I don't even remember what her name Kennedy I think like it wasn't even isn't what was it forty hours a week no no that's not true because we I think what we said was if you're leaving oh that's true because we were counting your commute time it's gone from your family fifty hours a week so I'm just saying when when it comes to me going okay let me draw a line in the sand as your wise this is just disruptive this right here has to stop and I'm not going to tell you how to figure it out that you've got to find a way to whatever work this many energy you've got to find a way to quit working with American Classic Homes or you know I'm not I'm not like being controlled under dictatorial but when I say like this does not work for me you recognize that you never had any intention of an in that if I looked at historically it's like yeah every time my alarm Bells went off and I knew that you were doing something that wasn't good for us by trying it up you would talk down to me in a way that made it clear that it wasn't an option to consider my perspective wasn't an option to see things my way it wasn't wise it wage intelligent my strategy was all up it wouldn't lead to success the only way would be this the only way would be that I I haven't made any of those decisions all I did was the only thing that's allowed in a marriage to Dustin do photo which is support him and laid down my actual own life to him like she's to pursue my own dreams of being able to be a good mom who can spend time with my kids and focus on their growth and development give up my dreams of having a household that's orderly and safe and comfortable to want to spend time in like all of that just had completely wage go out the window and because there wasn't room for that to exist in a marriage to you it wasn't allowed and I did try page the most respectful way a wife can appeal to a husband for the well-being of herself and her children I appealed to you respectfully and I was shut down every time so I don't feel like you have had a heart change relative to your financial irresponsibility I don't feel like you've had a heart change relative to your life away from your family I don't feel like you've owned those things I don't feel like you're willing to look at the deeper issues that caused them and I don't feel like you're willing to see how could you not just made a mistake for yourself but how you send against me in doing those things so and and and and and to me like proof in the pudding is you're still engaging in those kinds of controlling behaviors like still nothing has changed I don't know but I mean I mean like when you decided when you decided that you needed to hide documents for me and get them shredded before I could look at them because you know what's best and you know that it's fast for me hidden from you I know if you the real doctor or not I was not allowed I'm not talking about what you gave me I never even asked for what gave me and you know it off I went I didn't ask for those papers because I thought they had financial data on them that's absurd to say that I wanted the financial data how how would I know how would I know it was on the paper is if I hadn't even seen them all I know is that you were being a belief all I know was that in a marriage you shouldn't be hiding papers from one another all I know is that you were behaving aggressively pushing me and unkindly towards me and trying to make me feel bad and even today to a third party trying to make me look bad like a a bad violent aggressive overbearing a person for something that no husband I know would have tried to hide from his life you're still doing that and you still feel entitled to do you did entitled to do what you said nothing has changed in your heart is right now on the phone you telling me that that was acceptable behavior now I'm sorry I didn't give you the papers that I am sorry because you got caught no it's not because I got hot it's not because I got kind of because the Earth too and I don't want to hurt you see that's the problem that's the problem you're going to go through the rest of your life actually terrible simple things to me that I don't want to otherwise you do you think it's long the only thing that's wrong is the fact that you're sensitive wife got her feelings hurt I gotta tell you something about my feelings are not hurt at all it doesn't give me sad that you did that to me it doesn't make me feel unappreciated that you did that to me it doesn't make me feel bad about myself that you did that to me I just know I can't make you feel bad about yourself I genuinely sorry I didn't let you give you the patient with me because it hurt me so you want to imagine the problem with the behaviour is simply my sensitivity you want to imagine that the problem with the behavior is that it hurt your wife you shouldn't have done it and she couldn't have done it if you had known it would hurt your wife I'm not hurt I wouldn't I wouldn't have done at a time when I'm not hurt here the I am not hurt so the problem that the behavior cannot possibly be that I'm hurt when I'm not hurt the problem with the behavior is only that the behavior was wrong and the behavior was aggressive dog the behavior was controlling and the behavior was bad and the behavior showed that you had a lack of trust in me and the behavior showed that I cannot have trust in you off but that's a behavior that on its own is bad and shows a major character deficit there is no place for that kind of abusive behavior in a marriage my feelings are not hurt well I'm sorry that as aggressive with you I'm sorry that I didn't give you the papers and I will give you got papers not because you're looking at because I got dive because you're looking to find out what demons you have in your soul that would cause you to do something that erratic you're sorry because you're being held accountable for it now to Define off or actually being willing to be held accountable for everything but that's clearly not the case because you take the man who loves you enough to help not really hard to see either just plainly appearance and so that they had really high opinions of themselves and what's a real deterrence power in this bizarre way that is heavy-handed and what reasonable and not really sure what any of that that's not what I thought any of that okay what I said that but but I think they they had higher position themselves and things of themselves that they have conflicts among themselves off and let us know because of the high opinions of themselves people have different opinions about things because people are different but your behavior is not something to really have an opinion about it sometimes you feel Behavior it's plainly apparent it's it's they would be able to characterize it and they do not ever bother me as much fact the fact that you're learning about that shows me that you're not serious about somebody defaults to get accountability if you're not serious about humbling yourself to get accountability already yep yep are you saying that you want to see a for advice that is not submitting yourself to accountability office no you are not submitting yourself to accountability literally happened this week with the a your statement is incorrect your in-home I'm telling you that's if it's only on the things that you decide that you want to have people see that you're being a suitable for that's completely different and but as you thank God huh what did you say and then you decided that you want to go out of your way to choose to approve the people that you have accountability that's completely different than accepting it when people come to you with something that you don't want to hear and don't want to do and don't do that I gained to him that's what I just said I just I literally just about that if you're the one I know but that's too that you deciding that there's something that you want if you've already decided before you even work assume that you wanted to do that thing oh he didn't come to me I don't know what to tell you he didn't come to me went to him dead you were saying all these things that show that you're not actually willing to be accountable to them
speaker 2: no
speaker 1: I'm willing to be accountable to them where it's possible I don't know it doesn't matter I should say this but you do not bad I'll do this but not that I know they completely completely think too highly of themselves often do it on this because that's something I want to do and make sense to me on that cuz that does not make sense to me and they're not characterized the way whereas like barrier of my existence versus their existence cuz it doesn't sound like you really want me to be a person at all well I think that are badly deceived and I think that you will perception of yourself and your own behavior or two warped to be able to trust you to make decisions for yourself so you want to have happen well I 1000% would have expected that you would have listened to air in the first time he told you and gone home everything in your power to figure out how to cut back your hours that's something that I would do if somebody came to me that dead serious and said Isis in in your life and not here's here's this is not going to fix it but this is just like the first tiny teeny tiny scrap that you need to do is and I would do it I just wanted I wouldn't be worried about that they used to be a person I wouldn't be where I am now or explanation to think that Erin Bell should make my decisions for my life so that's actual basis for that I know and so this I'm I'm telling you what I would do if someone came to me and they were that serious about about the extended me and and worried that it was going to destroy my marriage and destroy my home that's just what I would do and I think that I think that we're I get that from is not from like a lack of wanting to be my own person I think I get that found is my interpretation of the proverbs and the gospels and the Epistles I I take those teachings pretty seriously and I think that being a core part of who I am causes me to choose humility and need to be willing to hear the Council of the wise and I think that your values are may be very different than that wage and I don't I don't see that that something that you want to change at all I don't I disagree with that I followed all of their advice closely and physically possible yes it is true classic call Dustin okay well they told me not to quit after they told me to quit so you're right I didn't follow it first now I'm following it I I disagree with because I don't think that they're telling you who call me on the phone and insist that you've changed and insist that you weren't hiding papers from the and like any of the stuff that you're saying any of this stuff by the way or another month you give me advice and I didn't follow it he said you haven't repaired those relationships you haven't had a heart of repentance toward them you're not broken at how you misused their advice in the past you're not broken that they can't trust you anymore you suck to know that the advice they give you isn't going to be used against your lies you're not broken about any of the bad things that you said about their character your and they need things about that yeah and misrepresenting like the fat you said that they couldn't characterize your behavior at all if that's not true actually I heard them to behave Asia so the same things about them that are characterized they characterized by personality without characterizing my behavior to give any sort of credence to their opinion about my I've heard them characterize your behavior many times yeah have that I have asked if yeah I'm sorry but I've heard it too much to believe what you're saying yes ma'am yes ma'am well it strikes me that with the Space Coast seem at all interested or able to resolve any of these things that we disagree about what do you want to get this I'm not wanting him to do anything specifically other than whatever you could do therapeutically to resolve that but if it would be enough to a place where we recognize that we have disagreements and you want to make sure you're already at work but but that's I told you it's totally not already not at that I know but you're completely you're completely one hundred percent okay with us having different opinions a different perspective and different stories about what has occurred you've been okay with that all along I don't know if I'm okay with it I I think you told me that you're okay you've told me so many times that you're okay with that that you just want me to be open today as far as I'm not going to divorce you that doesn't mean that I'm not sad that you claimed that I'm that everything that I do is abusive and I haven't had any positive impact in our family and marriage and finances I don't do basically every time we communicate but I don't just because I just because I yeah just because I tell you the specific things that you are doing that are sinful and destructive doesn't mean that I'm saying that everything you do is simple as destructive if that's the reason I got your reservation of being a long-term character well I'm calling you the specific behaviors right I'm telling you to generalizations of your opinion of my life such as your behavior in general relative to manage our finances has only depleted our wealth whereas my behavior in general relative to our finances that's on everything that has increased are welcome by the behaviors are just generalizations about your opinion about things without any sort of that back up. It's just it's not that I'm talking about spending money wage Malt House you know something about that you know that I have these they haven't heard of that word but do not get that you have you actually sell it for that's not true that's the reason that you had to pay the interest on it that you had to pay on it if you would actually sold the house to purchase the items. That'd be fine. Because you got alone to make the purchase at a certain way to 15% 15% and 22% 30% and you're paying late fees on those cards because you can't make the payment you need to actually sell the house before you make that purchase if you want to use the equity of the house to justify making a purchase it's no longer justifies the statement they know this morning I'm talking about Mark I'm talking about the interest rates in the late fees that you're paying that is greater than 6 it's Abby it's a behavior I don't mean for you to think that I'm making generalizations I think that we're both pretty good at math and I think that when we talk about financial irresponsibility I think you know at least some of the specific behaviors that I had in mind but I'm sorry if I over-generalized and I'm sorry if I assume that you can connect the dots in fact I was referring to I don't ever want you to think that I think that these are immutable characteristics of your personality oh you do okay and you can play when I say that it's like characterization or general wage even if it is a generalization because the fact that we have a very positive net worth that far outweighs others in our age group wage of my financial management is such that you're saying that I've done nothing but destroy well nothing to that page I thought that you were adopted connect the dots and know which behaviors I'm thinking of that rained our net worth and I was thinking that you are financially literate enough to connect the dots to think of the behaviors that I as your wife have engaged in that way I'll raised our net worth and I am sorry I've never seen that behavior of having contributed to our famous family situation but I'm saying you were saying that none of my behaviors have contributed to our family situation which is a generalization in mathematically provably legals dead no no it's not yes yes it is because we need working at Fidelity Investments we would still own South 18th Street because the rent on that has been putting the mortgage on a speak with Fidelity if you quit your job at Fidelity Investments we would have to be working at a dock worker our entire life like hearing I'm comparing the decision that I would have made for you to be contributing or not contributing to our net worth and our payments off our bill and expecting me that measure up to doing something that would never going to happen and never send it to happen for more than six months that you told was the lie that I expect to do that that was a lie don't ever tell that lie again because it's not true I don't expect you to do that and I never did expect you to do that but I'm giving you right now because I'm giving you a pig it's fine on which you can compare arbitrary what he's got nothing to do with that I'm going to give you an arbitrary Baseline okay with the arbitrary Baseline of you still working at Fidelity Investment. We would still know it's not it's completely appropriate to you know it's going to work at Fidelity Investments to take any of the activities that you did outside of that or after that and showed that that actually happened well if you had not quit working at Fidelity Investments wage would still be Investments show you a Baseline and you against the Baseline you won't be able to argue I imagine but I had some responsibility to maintain an incredible that you stayed home please enter the games they stayed home playing video game and hardly paid our kids any attention emotionally while I went and worked as a teacher let's let that be the Baseline okay cuz I'm not expecting you to do anything except not go out and blow off money so if you just stay home and I give you a $25 video game budget per month okay we still own South 18th Street and you're not doing anything right we still own family drive and you're not doing anything right we still North 14th Street and you're not doing anything right and we we live at Bonny Oaks Drive and I make plenty of money to pay that mortgage and buy groceries and pay the utilities would actually be incorrect but the same web correct you would still be making less money than me I didn't say I need to make more money okay I'm so sorry before they close we would not $150,000 in debt we would just have a simple salary and a simple lifestyle that allows us to pay our own bills and we would still have the net worth of all these houses and you wouldn't have to retract all the credit card debt from it the same mass you didn't work during that time and it's a completely different scenario where you're saying if I had worked I didn't work I work you did not work but I didn't choose for you to go off and blow $150 by the time I got involved so that site up and Assets Now a third of all that just shows me that I was the one producing cash flow no no that makes me that way I was not sitting here playing video games and you know it nobody said that you were and nobody's claiming that you didn't contribute to our Network that's just Preposterous to say that the person that earned the money and didn't work did it contribute to a network that is that's preposterous that's preposterous you were blowing money money money money blowing money have you sold the camera have I what so the cameras not yet okay so all these assets that our network has tied up in we're paying high interest on the you have to subtract the interest that you're paying a single day of your life and you saying that you blew our Wills that's something that I wouldn't have done but you know what the fact that I stayed home with our kids that is what allowed you to go to work and if you told me to go and work somewhere Fidelity Investment while I was here then I guess what I would have been fifty percent responsible for the money you were getting from Fidelity because I was the one enabling you to not have to be here with the kids that's that money earned for a household responsible for the other 50% would be too if you worked at Fidelity Investments going to send you okay but you should have made and we're both responsible well I can't continue to be held responsible for your poor decision and I'm sure has asked me to you are right now you're telling me that all these decisions that you need that were terrible I'm halfway responsible for Monday I'm not doing that anymore I wouldn't none of those decisions that you made that I'm evidently fifty percent responsible for were my decision none of them are decisions that I would have made none of them are decisions in My overall opinion I thought were wise and so over the next five years I don't want to continue to be held responsible for fifty percent of what you do you're not a person who I trust that you're responsible for things I do that I was fifty percent responsible for everything that's happened so far because it's a marriage and marriage both people are crazy person responsible for my income not that I'm saying I wouldn't have chosen for you to go and do what you did I would have chosen for you to work at the daily wage so I I'm I'm happy to be held fifty percent responsible for enabling you to spend the time outside of our home but if you're not spending that time outside of the home in a way that I that is the best way to spend it than I can't be responsible for the way that you chose to spend that time outside of the home the number of hours that I gave you way outside of the home like if you take forty hours a week at Fidelity and like multiply that time to multiply that times 3 to do actually send me out off 80 and 120 hours a week outside of our house like black how much I've invested right my earnings has been a triple Fidelity salary as I work here at home to enable you to spend that much time out there and you did not earn a triple Fidelity salary each year and not upset about that I would you know that it's not about money for me and I'm happy to be destitute I'm happy to be homeless I'm happy to walk to be barely making it or paycheck to paycheck or whatever I'll have to be for my family and to support my husband and to do what we can for our kids just happy to I believe you spoke to me on the phone today. Comfortable with any more I didn't I'm sorry I did not mean to do that well that's every day. I don't I mean you know I'm getting to the point I don't know both I don't want to see their butt off I'm trying to figure them out so that we don't have problems I'm doing it because I want to prove you wrong and me right or for us to keep doing what we've been doing which is been horrible for both of us I think I don't know I mean I'm starting to feel like there's nothing I can do to help you you know I I am saddened when I hear you say that I'm making generalizations because I've worked so hard for so many hours and hours and hours and hours and hours and hours an hour with you to be so specific with you and so patient with you and so direct with you makes it seem very very very fruitless I guess the part I don't get it seems like this therapist says well you can't fix that sort of thing anyway unless I'm missing something what sort of thing the back and forth between us where you say that something happened one way and I'd say it happened a different way yeah yeah I think I got that impression too so I think what you were saying is Well you would be happy for that to just be the way it is and I thought I was saying that doesn't necessarily make me happy but it's not something that you want to talk to you I know you understand that you were claiming that that is off the problem you're going to maps and map the problem is that we have different perceptions what happens and that's what we need to fix we need to get on the same page and I need you know when you do the television and reading the papers as an example do you understand that I'm not trying to violate you been reading meaningless papers like I would not do that no you you absolutely did you did and it's not going to admit I appreciate it's not that I didn't appreciate it if that that's abusive that's not an okay thing for any man to do to any woman in a marriage is not this is not my feelings about it it's actually not okay and that's what we need help with and that's what I'm trying to do I'm not trying to this is all you it's it's completely 100% you have to figure out what weird demons live inside of you that make you see you're entitled to do stuff like that that's not normal yep that's you've got so much work to do on yourself that doesn't involve me in any way I don't see it that way I don't know if I tell you I didn't I didn't shred our meaning of those papers to hurt you did not do that to hurt you did not review or whatever I'm saying I didn't do it to do something to you I did it because we said we were going to do it yeah but my perception of it is not the problem the behavior is the problem you feel entitled to do stuff like that it's extremely controlling and there's nothing that I can do about that I couldn't have approached you in a way that would have been gentle loving enough to make you feel safe showing me the papers like there's zero absolutely zero on my end that's going to help with that well there's a way for me to formulate some imaginary scenario that upsets you that I have no concept of them upset me it's or whatever but it's not nothing to do with my perception nothing it's just this is Justin you off this is it's it's not that I'm saying it's not it it's not in me and so if it's a you then it's it's an office was definitely not in me I can't I understood the problem I wouldn't do it in the first place that's why you can't devalue integrate people like Aaron Bell because there's something wrong with you that let's see these really bizarre things that you say and really bizarre things that you do that are really control and really odd and really destructive but when you've got someone who's willing to take the time to tell you what you need to do differently that's not really a somebody that you can afford to like damage your relationship with or like that's that's the person that you need to bow down to and put on a pedestal and hang on to their every word because they've got some common sense you don't okay honestly when you say stuff like this that just makes me think well what are we going onto here it doesn't you have zero regard for me you just just because I think that these things are unchangeable so you go to have I don't think that these things are unchangeable I think you could change these things but you you want to keep this as some like part of your who you are but it's just thin so if if you're taking simple behaviors saying like this is who I am so she doesn't offer the simpleness that means she doesn't like me as a person do you have a completely different perspective on human behavior that issue you have a completely different perspective on the sanctifying work of the holy spirit in a believer's life over time than I do so I like you am I know all of this then I know what you mean like I don't have to behavior but I don't think that your behavior is who you are I think your behavior is this decision that you're making that I can only play you're going to be delivered to them but you don't seem to have any desire to stop sending you don't seem to have any desires to take off the blinders you don't seem to have any desire to become more holy over the course of your life but it sounds to me like you're saying this is who I am this is my core personhood and I don't want to have to listen to somebody else's judgment about what I should do because if somebody else says I shouldn't be doing this and I want to do that then that means that I ceased to exist as a person but that's what being a Christian is like if if you got saved that was when you cease to be a person that that would be fine except it only works for me and if I ever I don't I'm not I'm not saying my own will and my old boss selfish desires and I'm pursuing what is right it's not lighting good to be angry that somebody wants to see a papers it is right and good to shoot things like that within a marriage when you're financially and emotionally supposed to be dependent upon one another like I'm I'm I'm studying the Bible and pursuing godliness I'm laying aside what I would want and speaking to do what is healthy and what pleases the Lord for our house hold and I'm going to continue after that because what you want is to leave at this point so is what would at this point now that is what would be the best for children because you you've got a really really really long pass and change ahead of you and after all this time of me telling you the exact problems in specific behaviors and ways to go about it you're telling me that I haven't told you the specific behaviors off you don't know what the behaviors are and that my perception is wrong and that if you were to listen to the counsel of otherwise people then you would see through the person you don't want to do that so I'm having to take all of that into account in my decision making of what I think is best for my kids and we can't have emotional health with you taking up so much of my time having these kinds of conversations we we just paid it that took a turn that wasn't expecting so are you saying don't sign up for this class and we're not doing which took this conversation last Friday right you you that our marriage that you as an individual apart from me you have work to do on yourself and you can decide what resources you have been offered that you want to take advantage of and you can decide how much you want to get out of them and you can decide how humble you want to be and how seriously you need to take your need to change and what you're willing to admit to you can do all of that do things that actually happen. Could you could you could absolutely admit to all the things that have happened sure but that's up to you it's not none of this is my responsibility right it's not talking about joint assets oh yes that would like you on board so that I don't hear six months from now just and whatever with our money that wasn't was abusive seems to be for him to go to abuse class like I just I'm sad that you mocking me I'm not I'm not locking you I'm one hundred percent serious to avoid that you know asking if you're serious I'm saying that you're the thing that you're saying with all serious right now is mocking you took it mean that you're not serious it means that you are taking me and you are making a caricature of me it's perfect of you would like to have that not happen in real life hold on just a second sorry yeah it was it was extremely mocking and review picture of me and take something like taking going to Men of Peace which you know that I recommend it to you can I go to Honey like I need to do your feeling different I'm just asking if you're feeling differently about it. Let me know if that I don't spend the money and time doing something else when I asked you to get a hundred ways to get help with your core issues with any good night do it I went I don't want to go do this and say well you didn't do it even though I did it I don't want that you waited until you had depression waited until you had anxiety and you went until you had PTSD and you waited until your wife had filed for divorce and you waited until you you have decided to start drinking and you waited until you decided that your church family had somehow been turned against you by what your wife said about you and then you went off like that's that's not what I asked you to do and you know it you know that I asked you to go work on things that didn't even exist when I asked you to go there so the fact that I picked that facility out because it's a great facility and I love you enough to sacrifice $18,000 for your emotional and mental well-being does not mean that you get to twist it around on me and say that I like manipulated you into doing that and then flipped and said that you didn't do it good enough like you've talked about me that way you're offering for me anything wrong. I don't think you're going to get anything out of it but that's your decision that none of this is my job going through I could send you through probably a different program every six months for the rest of our life but that doesn't mean that you change if you decide that you want to change if you decide that you're actually remorseful and you actually want to know what it is that ad only be removed for things that actually happens I know that saying that most that I've only put things that have actually happened so significant if it's agreements about that well if you wanted to take the time to seriously investigate figuring out what you've done what I've done the tools for that but I'm I'm not going to say that doing this program is somehow wage going to something that's going to allow us to go back to the status quo of Hugh behaving all the way if you want to behave and then making the complaint from a half to three hours to that something that you did that was destructive until you make me cry and then that you say that you're sorry that it hurt me Ad nauseam for the rest of our lives like God that's not what the programs for its the program is not to convince your wife to go back into all of the same destructive patterns because you did a program and that makes up for it that's that's not how it works the program is for husbands and I don't they're all right all right yep you want me to do it and you did not participate but the what are you talking about I don't know how you do I don't like talking to me I mean what he says that that's that kind of thing like I don't know still I don't see it talking down for the installation just think about everything it is weird I don't know what you think I'm blaming you for it that's a question about something that's going to happen in the future to participate or what do you see them go through metal piece or are you comfortable with me coming to you with things that I've learned in it or are you going to be able to tell me directly what some of the specific behaviors are as that goes through different modules like those are the things that you say you don't say okay I'm not going to participate like that weird that is weird if I go through it can you give me examples when I go to different modules please I don't I'm not comfortable with you pretending that I haven't already I won't know what they are and I can't work through them if they don't exist in my brain that's not true that's not that is actually true so you can you can search the note you can look at yourself well that's why I'm asking the question because that doesn't sound workable to me I kind of know what to tell him that I did wrong so I would like to talk to tell him tell him anything right he's not going to tell him something nobody has to tell him anything he hurt your counselor you're not accountable to him you're accountable to Erin Bell and McDonald's or cancel it Pacifica and me and whatever Advocate I choose that's who's going to tell you that's who you need to go to Chris mould is not a he's not he doesn't need to know any of it he's he's an educator but if you're thinking that this is something that I need to be involved in or that you're changed depends on these showing clearly that's not the case like I can I can work on myself and I can see humble to God by myself and I can see you got wise counsel for myself and I can listen to people who come to me to point out soon and me and hear them and change myself wage that's not be responsible for you anymore your journey has to be on you and your change has to be on new and your decision to be accountable has to be on you and you being honest about your behaviors in the ceiling and your actions have to be on you all right bye um can you remind me what's happening with Sam again or text me later or something I remember Saturday morning I'm supposed to get the 10th birthday you're gone hello I mean were you wanting us to take on Friday until you get off of work. I would like to be part of his celebration I can get off early probably I mean I guess if he doesn't care then no point but do I just let me know no are you saying that you would like to just come Saturday morning no I mean there's going to be cake and he would like me there I would like to be there like being part of their birthday but if it doesn't make a difference in the timing doesn't match for you and I'm not trying to hold you hostage it's it's not bad the I can I can wait till you get off of work that's okay okay but I I know that it has not been good for our kids to see us together and I'm having to do my best to take that into consideration when you're wanting to spend time around us would clearly no regard for that what's the problem with them seeing us together I mean obviously what you did on Easter that was that was really horrible that was really horrible that's I mean that's that's very very very very damaging very damaging very damaging to children and then the night that you kept them out till 8:30 thinking that I should have an interrupt them and tell them to leave their daddy around with me you pussy outside and told me I couldn't talk to you from inside I didn't realize that you were trying to go to be into making accusations so that you could blame shift maybe make that decision, then you should have made that clear that that if I told you what was how it was affecting our kids you were going to take it as an accusation that you needed to defend yourself against off the fair warning please so that I know not to fall for it I'll just I don't know what you're calling I think you're calling into consideration I thought that I could tell you what effect it had on the phone because I thought this conversation was about wage the children children so if you if you tell me I need the kids in by a what you have now done then I will say the date you need to come inside I was trying to change the fact was on the children I was not trying to see which one of us but it wasn't trying to say it was your fault or my fault and when I was telling that I was telling you about what net effect it had on the children you interrupted me to say that wasn't my fault that had nothing to do with were the one who sent the magnet like are you kidding me oh not kidding you were having a conversation about what the issue would be with me spending time over there and you're characterizing what happens but the children being out is being my fault and I would have had the choice if you had said the minute that is not what this is about that then I did not characterize it as being your fault I'm telling you that this is not good for the children that that whole dynamic of meeting would be the one to dictate to to get the kids in by their bedtime that's that's not it's not all that good out after their bedtime so I thought they were going to be out after their bedtime again I'm not trying to say who's fault it was I'm trying to explain to you what the effect is a transfer because that doesn't seem to be something that never crosses your mind you seem preoccupied with completely crossed my mind why are the children outside lately but I was unable to a drug because he didn't want me to stick with you I figured you would come get them when you were ready to have them okay I can tell me when to put them in I will ask who's fault it is dead no no have anything to do with the children this is just about the children about the children's bedtime know this is just about getting the children inside when we can both agree to Thursday it would be appropriate at who's fault is that the kids weren't in untightened that's what you're worried about right now no it sounds like that's all you want to talk about is how it was my fault which I'm not really worried about because I'm not really thinking about whose fault it was I'm thinking about her children I'm thinking about what the context of the conversation whether we can spend time at the house with the children together until I'm making a list and getting interrupted in the middle of my list and listing of things that have an impact on them and considering what kind of adults it will contribute to them being some day I'm thinking about them and it it trying to tell you my list you interrupt me and get upset because I want to make sure that I know that it was my fault and not yours no I'm saying that the to the completely solvable problem if we just communicate this is what needs to happen there's no reason that that needs to be an issue is the entire point if you were a person that I could trust not to say mommy says it's time to go inside if I were a person that you could trust to look up at the sky and go oh it's dark outside let me text her and find out if I should send them in or not okay but I don't have that level of trust with you I have that level of trust with other men it would have been less confusing if you didn't send them outside like you wanted them to be outside and you wanted them outside so I had them outside this is it is you not hear that every single thing you say is about whose fault it is if it's my fault it's my fault because his trust me to know automatically that you pushed through that time back and that was really fun message I'm not that is not true then why are we talking about that incident I don't all right well that is a concern then if you tell me when to have them in I will bring them in I don't anticipate being over there at night it didn't sound like I was delighted at night okay I didn't say it was your fault. Then I'm explaining that right now so Dynamic is so broken and so on. Just making a list of the last three times that we've been in the same room as our children
speaker 2: and
speaker 1: I was trying to look at it from their perspective because that's what I always do with them that's what I'm always thinking about with them so when you're here I'm thinking about it from the children's perspective it'd be really good for them to be able to go play with your daddy and it's only seven-thirty and I let him go outside when they're outside and it's past their bed time I'm thinking about it from their perspective of what might happen if I text you that they need to come inside cuz it's faster that time but what might happen if I stick my head out the window a long time to come in for that that's what I'm thinking about the children and what it will look like from their perspective and how it will affect them and that worried about blaming you and happy to take blame for that single one my new occurrence occurring the way that it occurred at the moment that it occurred it's fine it doesn't really matter to me if I had it to do over I do it over again but that's I'm not saying that it should have happened differently or you did something wrong or I did something wrong then the net effect on the children of us being together has a pattern of being destructive to them psychologically and I end I can completely own the last time you were here I went outside to ask you age while you had that decal on your truck that was completely me a hundred percent mean but the net effect on our children was destructive that is really bad for them so they're going to do things like you do when we're together and I'm going to do things like I do when we're together and the kids are going to be damaged by that then why would we keep doing it as long as we keep being together in front of them I think pretty good I'm going to have to stop talking to you on the phone just because it's not happening a lot of times when the kids are here and I can go in a different room or I can go in the backyard but if the moment they run outside and went into my room I'm saying the words that that true that's not true then that's what they hear on my end of the conversation over and over and over and over there running into the same thing with hearing their mothers say that's not true that's not a normal thing for children to grow up hearing from their mother normal is the intent of getting therapy in my opinion today need to stop talking to you on the phone to get me to something that's not true when things are true but that's that's not something that's going to change I'm going to continue to believe what I believe I think my name is not I have to give up trying to convince you of it and I have to let you have your alternate reality from me off and just literally not talk about it anymore ever so are you saying that you don't want me over at Sam's birthday or you do I'm saying that it is that it it seems to me like it is one hundred percent on my shoulders to take into account how things are going to affect the children that's what it feels like when you say that I'm supposed to decide whether you come and take with us I was just saying I don't know if I'm in it or not like I you understand that on my end like I'm the one having to weigh the page this can benefit from this and you are willing to charge into it with Reckless abandon weighing nothing considering Novus wage having no concerns because head is it it turns the children that's fine I can always just turn it around and say well their own fault like without being more concerned about what the actual effect is I'm concerned but I I'm sorry I'm on the phone. Thank you no okay thank you all right thank you you too this terrible she should not have done that
speaker 2: what
speaker 1: happened let me see took Sam's shoe off on purpose oh yeah is there something that I can do to make that workable for you it sounds like overall what you really would like to do is come over and have played with them tomorrow after work and then come over Saturday morning and set up his bounce house that works that's why I'm asking if that that's okay if it were so I'm not trying to cause a problem it's been a problem well you sound really worried about it I told you that I'm anytime you ask to come up and I'm having to weigh the risks and my children okay I call that a problem it's okay for me to come over to see if it's something to factor in with wanted to make any sense see here now you said you want to make a swing myself on the swimming and I myself don't have no wage you know why it says that cuz when I when he says well you push me I say no this time which one yeah so that's what we'll plan on okay is that what you want to do sure if that's the cause of problem I'm happy to I mean I don't know I was trying to let you know all the effects on them you know so that you could be calculating in Computing at the same way I do but I don't think it's fair to be I don't think it's fair to put me in the position of being the only word of the equation whoever wage you know cares about that seriously enough to restrict family time that's that's that's a net negative for them you know how long that's enough negative for the kids that's how I think about that and when you asked me to be the one would have to say no not to happen that in and of itself is an unhealthy Dynamic for them to me your family goes to your birthday and the only reason I'm really asking is about your house so I thought I forget your permission I'm just saying the name of it is the fact that I'm clearly aware that there's a high risk of psychological damage to them if if we're planning that and I'm clearly very hyper cognizant of that Dynamic and it's sad to me that you're not because psychologically damaging to our children I don't know. I'm not saying you are I'm saying that Mutual presence simultaneously it's absolutely absolutely without question and I only named the last three times and I can tell you how all three of them are going to negatively affect their adulthood I went back four times ago and five times a day I'd probably have more examples but it's something that I'm hyper aware of and again these these phone conversations are going to have to end soon because I'm working for them either okay with our children and then we can't talk on the phone and somebody I don't understand why we're trying to work out the the opposite of everything the issue is that you think that has anything to work together and what you've got accept is that I'm working on me and you're working on you but there is no way I don't know what's going on I'm sorry I just know each month August August would you say that I don't know I just said that I'm going to work on me and when I work on me about something that something that will improve me hopefully hopefully I can become less concerned about what other people think about hopefully I can get less caught up on you know worrying about whether you see things my way or even whether we remember particular that the same way because I don't at all see that as being the issue in our relationship at all I see that as being something that you get me or I am I allow you to get me caught up in talking in circles about Ad nauseam that that's not a constructive way to spend time and it's not a constructive way to speak to one another and I'm not concerned about it but you do have a lot of girls to do on my end to stop that cycle however remove the conversation that I'm not really interested in continuing remove those conversations you know from the Dynamics of the relationship whatever I can look at your behavior and say that your behavior is not something I'm willing to live with but that that that's that's where the work on your end have you been okay so I'm not I'm not feeling like the work that I have to do on myself and the work that you have to do on yourself a really nice even helps by that's talking on the phone if anything is probably probably hurting my development Sunday work I have to do you know cuz it says I'm getting caught up in these conversations that I've gotta learn not to do I don't know it doesn't seem to be helping your development either especially when it gives you the illusion that we have some kind of you know stuff to work on as a couple I don't think that's the case at all but I you know I've said a lot of times if we could divorce you could still do your work and then see someone who has really truly Had a Heart Change Behavior change but in the future I would like to remarry and the fact that I is it hope it's not being a possibility for you doesn't change the fact that off. Something I would want the last thing you said that the fact that post in in that happening you know the same job definitely losing hope getting daily life out loud daily confirmations from you that you have no interest in doing that no intention of doing that was that you end up having a major Heart Change true repentance the things that I have a heart change about so well I have I told you today I felt like you were blaming finances on me and you assumed that that was dead and I thought you did you finance is on you you said it was 50% off welfare 50% of our income which was hearing what you just said for fifty percent of what you're able to go out but your worst fifty dollars an hour and you go out and you earn $5 an hour it's not on me how efficient you chose to be with that time that I've left you with I did I did nothing deceptive on my end of the financial equation yeah I was faithful I was wise I was I was too risky no I wasn't going out and buying expensive items for me and the kids I know it's okay buddy yeah no I don't I don't feel like anything you said on the phone today even gives me a hint that you have truly repented and owned what you've done that and truly want to change I don't always say that I'm always articulated I think that I've always said that I have regrets for them and wish that I had made different choices so Thursday then white but when you whitewash your behavior you do you don't need to apologize for the full breadth of what occurred you take some small understandable mistake a person can make any use for that it does it it doesn't happen but it doesn't account for the depth of selfishness and indifference and foolishness what you were engaging in or long periods of time the foolishness is not being willing to turn from your wickedness when people came to you and told you and then I regret that sorry so you can't you can't whitewash things that have happened if I'm trying to explain to you I think many times many many times for an extended period of time now that I wish I had followed that advice when I gave it to me I would have been the right now you also tried to play the song think too highly of themselves you haven't given you any specific behaviors and that they think too highly of themselves you did I said that they have a high regard for their own opinion and kind of split between agent he looks like a cool many is in areas throughout this process either extremely extremely humble people that you're talking about and every single person in the world should should be able to discuss their differences with one another especially humble people should be willing to discuss their differences with one another it's got nothing to do with me yeah it does the fact that you're pointing out bad things about that is that somebody they're bad I've never characterized their individual understand that's a good or bad I only characterized to see potentially different that's true no it's not no no I wanted to say all kinds of things about your poor judgment had extremely poor judgment regarding bringing up to a cloud provider to assist very clearly taking place in my life right now if I okay well I'm going to go with a big that's not true and how did you do it well I'm going to go with the prophet he didn't he didn't affect that reality he didn't need somebody to resolve differences between us because he was able to significant difference and but he was able to see the truth because he was there too he was saying the same thing I was saying he was he was not in the room when I supposedly read me when we were virgins though he wasn't didn't even know about that yes how does he know about that so then you told him huh you told him I don't remember saying that did you tell them we talked about it after you told him I told him also in yes also in the letter that I sent you I don't know why that has come up so much talk about it a lot I know that I guess it would seem to me like you were the one bringing it up I don't think that that was I don't think that that was something that Aaron was concerned about I don't I don't think that that was exactly what I'm saying is it huge glaring obvious indication that there are cognitive. He's between jobs receive is happening in me that needs to be resolved by professional and not by a pastoral whatever you consider themselves when he's giving us his height without bothering em on T but when you're talking about a psychologist resolving cognitive differences like I'm pretty sure that we've been told by every psychological professional but that's not what they do the tech told me that's not what they do Matt told us today that's not what they do I don't think that you're really making sense and saying that the person who was there seeing the behaviors first hand and was saying the same thing that I was seeing was supposed to pretend that the lies that you were telling about things that you said 2 minutes prior thing that I say is why is when you get that there's no way for anybody to to know the difference and they need to do it that way that's the difference because he was the one in the room so you're talking to the first time when we were very games and now you claim that I even thought we were talking about we were talking about peppers. Can you write it up talking about pepper and. Biscuits and picking up a Coke for Julie at McDonald's and that's what we were talking about that is what we were talking about we were trying to figure out what the heck was going on with Jew and you were contradicting yourself all over the place so you're talking about somebody who was like a an eye with this. What was happening between us and he was seeing the same thing I was seeing and now you're saying that you should have sent us to somebody who didn't see those things happen and wasn't an eyewitness to trying to figure out which person the third party is going to believe you or me that's not how it works I'm trying to get ready but we really has I'm not talking about a wedding. I'm talking about what was happening in real time in July and August and said I came back I talked about our wedding night yes I don't think so I'm not asking a psychologist make us believe the same thing I'm trying to figure out which one of us is crazy and if it's needed it would like help with my how that this is not about our wedding night I don't understand why you keep bringing that up FAQs I do you do I mean when I bring it out because it's an extremely good example of showing that dearly when events happened to the two of us the perceptual gap of what is occurring so inexpensively vast choice that you simply didn't remember that night I have remember we got to the hotel and we talked about how it was late and you thought maybe we shouldn't do it and I thought well it's already night we've been waiting for the page and then I remember we had awkward like birds insects without a lot of details of whatever okay and then I feel like you've been wanting to me for the past five years and I have home recordings now if you specifically telling me that you had no memory of that and now out of the bottom of the page it'll have a memory of raping you have a memory of the experience no I don't have a great night when I said that's really weird I don't think that most people would forget their first time it's an it's like I have a like Apple oo detail you're describing to me right now so like what most people would describe the first time as it sounds normal but that's what you've been planning okay okay I will yeah so I just feel like to because I know that you've been telling me that you didn't remember it at all and I told you that was really strange that you would remember it not all that you wouldn't remember it is all when it was your wedding night and you were a virgin and you've been waiting that long you said well my therapist here at Honey Lake think that that sounds perfectly normal well I described 2 a.m. I've described it to you and he just thinks that it sounds like to me it sounds normal but it sounds completely different than what you guys have have you think that I raised you because for the last five years you've been telling me that you have no memory of that night whatsoever but again I feel like you keep bringing this up and I don't feel like I've brought it up I really don't you had an up a lot with an occasion that I bring it up as as a tool to show that you claim that the communication or cognitive differences between us that the chef explored to me that for the last five years I have been under the impression that you had no memory of that night because it was such a long time ago and I feel really do come to find out that's not the case and it is really hurtful that you would take something that you pretended to be so sensitive and deferential and graceful to me about something that's just now all that is is a tool that you can use to prove how bad my perception is Lake that feels like you know how bad your perception is you said that that's why you bring it up you bring it up because it's the perfect example of how different our perceptions of past events are you bring it over and over against you Aaron it's a tool to save our marriage it's a tool that figure out what's going on so we can fix it you you you using renovate that we need to get our perceptions the same is not helpful that's not going to save our marriage well as living in different worlds our entire life isn't going to save our marriage I'm not trying to prove that I didn't review if I raised you what I feel horrible about that but why do you keep bringing it out I completely don't feel like oh you have I brought it up this time I think you've brought it up a lot okay could I just feel like that was the issue or if the issue is that what did you say oh I just don't feel like that has been a part of any of this I believe it's an extremely put a typical example of how different our perception against me to try something I do that's what I feel because it's not an actual Factor you're not bringing up things that are in actual factors and the factory it does it does it for me I'm not saying that bothers you I'm saying that what does bother you is that you constantly think I'm my name's but that's not what if you constantly think that I'm lying and misrepresenting things that have happened in the past but if that's true but the worst thing that can happen with that that's an extreme example of how but it was impossible are perceptive but it was fifteen years ago and it's completely unrelated of all of this it's not unrelated to the fact that we have extreme extreme differences in our views of events that are indicated talk about you coming in June papers last week and have a perfectly prototypical example probably away more prototypical example because it's more relative to how you operate your everyday life than your everyday finances and your everyday paperwork and your everyday way of interacting with me and your everyday way of talking to me and I read a way of relating to me the exact prototypical so I don't understand why you're taking an extreme example that has nothing to do with the trust issues between us and going there to just prove how off here in perception and relative to mind and now we have some I'm not saying years as our home and that one is reversing every apology you ever gave me about that incident off like when you just said when you just said I'm really sorry about that and I wish I could remember it that was the right way to handle it but to take what I've been through in the past six months at your hands and try to cover it up by rubbing my nose in the fact that you don't think you raped me over and took over and over to third parties and third parties and third parties is. I'm sorry I'm not trying to be cruel I'm trying to help that doesn't help there's nothing constructive about that but what I recognize more than anything in this is that I'm not pushing my children on the swing I'm not taking my children on a bike ride I'm not reading a book to my kids off and with you and my life that's the norm
speaker 2: and
speaker 1: I'm not okay with that anymore I need to change for their sakes I need to be the woman and the mom that God intended to be and I can't be that with you so I'm going to need to figure out how I can do what I'm supposed to do and that's on me Tommy bye that I guess I trying to understand what you're saying you want to go to law school and leave me basically I think the most well I have ever been well it's when I didn't talk to you like in November and December for the most part and I think even that I was relating Far Below God's intention for me because you'll actually messages in no type of December or so and terrific and distressing I know I'm just I'm saying like I've never actually been granted the freedom to not have my time and energy sucked into the Oblivion that is Dustin off and I've never actually had my time and energy free to focus on like my rolls off just as a mom and what most moms are allowed to focus on so not talking to you is is a is a very healthy thing for me and I think that I could do even better if during the time that I'm not talking to you I have the bonus of you might not like harassing me legally and I didn't think that anything that you can say to me that's going to make me think that you've changed your change is real not when you say you've changed that your change is real when when you show more self-awareness and when people point out things in new if you're not defensive and I think that's why personal just probably so big on not denying not minimizing that blame-shifting off because someone is going to change something I didn't do to change somebody's had a change of heart when they hear somebody saying oh I see this in you or you're doing this they don't immediately follow up and try to figure out how they can prove I can't take responsibility for something I didn't do like in fact not dead people don't take responsibility for things they don't do and you can't point out things that that you didn't change that you're saying right now are indicating the opposite of what I'm saying that I need to see in order to know that you've changed so I was hoping to get something out that they would finish the reflex of a person who's had a change of heart is that when something's being pointed out in their life they stop and they listen and they think about it and you have such a you know you had to have a reflex it's like it's like you can't even finish your set the person who's talking to you cannot even finish their sentence with you interrupt the person before they finished their sentence to deny it or to defend yourself against it or to say that it was somebody else's fault. so I've never played that something that I do or is my phone. So if I'm talking about across the board whether something you did or didn't do the reflex reaction if somebody whose heart has changed is not going to be to interrupt the accuser and defend themselves were dispatched that it ever occurred or that's not the behavior that I'm looking for the and if you're intending to continue doing that forever because you think that's going to fix things then you're telling me you have no intention of changing the doctor change I'm looking for telling you that I always accept responsibilities for things that I do and I thought that you do I'm not saying the things that you do that's not what I'm referring to know why am I ever going to accept responsibility for things that I don't do nope I didn't say accept responsibility did I let's listen again okay what I'm looking for to know that your change is real is self-awareness and introspection and that when problems made the past I'm not doing these things right off literally interrupting me because you think I'm making an accusation against you and you think the important thing when you're receiving an accusation is Tom interrupt and defend yourself in private never happened in place somebody else your anybody else I'm saying I'm saying the actions that I've actually taken for the past five months you're doing it you're doing it and and I'm saying that this is what you're interrupting and accusation or what you perceive as an accusation with the priority of ascending yourself and I'm saying I think that happens about myself that are opting me to make those accurate statements and you are preoccupied will prove your innocence and I will know that your changes real when you can take problem behaviors that people bring to your attention and just listen and stop the behavior and think about what that person said for a long period of time without feeling the need to respond verbally I can do that right now so well I'm going to need to see a good six months of that before I know that you're not just saying that you're going to keep doing that so you're going to see anything cuz we're not going to be talking evidently well I've got people I've got people who you're speaking out I'm saying that you like obviously if your heart has changed you're going to spend the next six months trying to repair your relationship with Aaron instead of with me because you're going to see that as being important and you're going to value that and you're going to you're recognizing that not the person you need in your life because he needs to be the one bringing problem behaviors to your attention because again that's not my job that's not a wife's job but we can't have a healthy marriage if I'm the person who's coming to you and criticizing you I mean seriously how how is that hurt a to have your life coming and criticizing you all the time telling you what to do but that's not a marriage it's matticus so you need to repair and build relationships with men who are going to be able to bring problem behaviors to your attention you're going to need not defend yourself not deny the behaviors and not blame shift that's how I'll know you that your changes are you taking feedback from other people and genuinely considering it without arguing because your behaviors have not improved and your words mean nothing but I would hope that your that'll work to support me and having more time to work on me and I would think that regardless of whether we stay married after you make the changes you need to make or whether we divorce because you don't want to make those changes I think that regardless I'm raising your children so it's a common goal for me to have an opportunity with the time freedom to develop into a healthy individual and a good mother can you support that either way what are you asking me for to be on board with giving me the time and space to work on myself in the ways that I think that I need to work on myself what is that mean as far as me probably no more phone conversations like this okay so are we acquitting our therapy know I can do that because when I do that I I you know it's on the calendar ahead of time and I take the kids over to my mom's house and I know they've you know if they receiving attention and care and that's an opportunity for me to set aside an hour to you know think about these things but like in a conversation like this there's there's zero regard for what I might have had planned for this evening for myself there's zero regard for what my children are eating their zero regard for me being able to exercise or me being able to you know cook healthy meals for tomorrow's breakfast or Vita read the Bible or Vita sit and stare at the sky or you know what I mean there's no me in this and there's no Development coming from this and women who don't have this kind of stuff going on with their husband all the time have the freedom of time to develop into the person they would develop into on their own who God wants them to be and and I've never had that I've only ever been so how I like say like oh I exist to serve and stuff like that so I mean I guess my point is you're practicing divorcing me that's that's what it seems like to me well I'm saying that I'm wanting to do the things that I know of women are allowed to do in their healthy marriages and I'm saying that I would think that those are things that you should support regardless of anything like regardless of if we are both ready and a healthy marriage and we've never have conflict or regardless of whether you're going to make the changes that I need you to make so that I can trust you again and we're going to get back together without having to divorce or offensive whether we're going to divorce and I'm you know going to be you know basically here you know what I mean without you being in the picture and regardless of whether we get divorced and then you do the work that you need to do on your science and then we remarry I mean in any scenario if you got a woman pregnant then off her being allowed to develop as an individual into a better mom and a healthier person and have a real walk with God that's an usual priority and what I verbalized that to you that I've never been able to be anything besides a function of you not because I'm your wife but because we've had an unhealthy Dynamic your response is not oh yeah I'm on board for you being a healthy individual or oh yeah I'm on board to give you the time and space to do whatever you need to do to work on yourself on board yeah you deserve that kind of Lifestyle would I hear from you is so basically what you're doing is practicing divorcing me so I'm not hearing that you have the same regard for my individuality and my personhood as what I expect from a husband and I feel life is that is your individuality and personhood and they've given you a wage but not freedom to in our home and time in our home to be an individual and develop and no yeah right now I'm saying you can look at our call log over the last month you can look at the hours right and you can say well those are all hours that she doesn't actually living her life well if we're not going to work out our issues I the only reason I'm on the phone is to work out our issues but if we're not going to explain that we don't have we don't have marital issues to work on I have my issues to work on and you have hearing issues to work on but there's not really an intersection for them at this point because my issues involved like learning to not worry about trying to get you to think my way and my issues involved not being a bad mom by ignoring my kids development of my kids needs while I'm mothering a grown adult like those are my issues that I need to work on and then you you have any issues which involve interrupting somebody when they're bringing compliments behaviors to your attention and being preoccupied with wage denying or defending and let's see those are your issues and and I can't do anything to advance that change in U I can't I can't it will they went Way Beyond the point in terms of like just going back and listening to the recordings we have we're Way Beyond the point of you being able to claim that you can't walk on it if you don't know what the problem is you've got all that audio to listen to so there's not you know what I mean there's not a way that I need to be involved if your work and there's not a way that you need to be involved in my work it's my work is between me and God but it's it's Saturday that when I expect something like that to you your reaction is to deny and defend I don't think that I've ever stopped you from having individuality like I'm just really concerned that you are not able to view me and a healthy way and that you don't like also share my concerns about my life being consumed with your junk I do I'm happy for you to have not would you like me to shut down the phone server events hm you're not paying monthly right just paying by the minute now the phone line is Health costs $2 a month and the phone server if we're not utilizing it probably cost $4 how much wage or 5 would be my guess well no we should keep that okay because like right now like I don't I don't really know what else to do about this weekend besides have you you know come for cake and come set up the bounce house and so the phone server you know gives me some levels of some level of security and it don't like please don't hear me say that I have like got this all figured out and I have like this plan to kick you out and practice divorcing you like I don't that's all that's all stuff that finding I need time to even figure out that much of it you know what I mean all right, and just think about okay what's actually best in this scenario you know in terms of that with the fact that the worst know I'm saying how much would it and saying how much would it be healthy for me to talk to you on the phone I don't know how much would it be healthy for the children to see us together I don't know are there enough ground rules that we could plan or communicate about ahead of time that would prevent awkward situations opposite being out past their bedtime obviously not bad because that's already happened but whatever unknown scenario we have it pretty communicated about that's going to make it you know I'm healthy but you know like like is there something that we can put in place that's going to allow us to interact in the interim I don't know but I think when people have a separation in their marriage it's not usually so that they can do this garbage we've been doing it usually when people do a celebration it's so that they can actually be separate people for a little while and you and I have never experienced that we were completely enmeshed prior to becoming adults so I don't know what it means to be an individual at all and I don't know what it means to be an individual at all cuz it has to be individual well so far that has not been healthy and I am sad that you don't do as an individual and I think that that is problematic please not the individual that you often treat me as an extension of yourself in an unhealthy way I don't think you literally are one person supposedly if we're married yes but you don't treat yourself as an extension of me and you just treat me as an extension of yourself so there's a whole lot of dust in in this and not a whole lot of money I know that view everything that you that you have we are one person went off the pump to the individual I don't think that that view that you have played out in a very healthy Way in real life and probably would be healthy for you to be able to understand us as two separate people before you contemplate what those two separate people like imply as a union okay something good good for you to get out of Separation but you're not even approaching it you probably further from that many governments because you've done even hyper you've done in. Like hyper drive mode trying to log in our goal is an interest if you you really think that you can't do anything without me and I can't do anything without you and off that work on us and more than ever you're almost obsessed with the Union I'm pretty sure of there being two separate people here but I guess I'll make sure that you're using sounds like it came out of some like a book about what how to mentally prepare yourself to divorce that's what it's like I I think that that's fair I would I would say that I am absolutely even right now on the path the divorce I know he's not file for divorce and like I told you earlier I just I'm losing any hope that you are going to make the changes back I would need you to make for us to be together extremely confused other than the changes that I've already need with your asking you to do be quiet be quiet be quiet I said be able to receive feedback without denying or defending or minimizing or blame-shifting like what if the feedback is incorrect what did they do to interrupt it and argue with it what does that accomplish how does that work for you so far you're saying I should temporarily be quiet and then make the correction later or you're saying I should always get feedback from I'm not eating and just adopted as if it were to remember Ten that's true I don't know what you mean by preparing the purpose of the feedback is not have a trial the purpose of feedback is to give you something to consider yeah but you're acting like I need to let a group of other people run my life so the goal is that they always tell me what to do and even when they have basic facts wrong and that they're not wrong I mean that's your attitude about it then again I have very little hope that you will ever be able to do that Anna having a dispute about it cuz this is all kind of I'm just asking people are going to run my life and he saved this way but non-pathological people here's a phrase receive feedback and I know but but normal non-pathological people hear that phrase and they go okay I understand what that means when somebody else you're acting like I'm the one that's characterizing how I'm supposed to respond to it and I'm really just extrapolating what you've told me about how I'm supposed to respond to them would hear that oh yeah that makes sense that's a normal way to respond to feedback you you hear it and you take it home with you and you think about it and you pray about it and you just the scriptures and you do some journaling to think about like how much of it that would be the normal way that you're trying to figured you're changing it to postal just run my life and status I'm not changing it that's why I'm not changing it based on your statements I'm understanding that that's what you want me to be doing what you have done so far is always interrupted people before they even finish their sentence and you're already defending yourself or denying having done it or it Shifting the blame onto somebody else or minimizing the effect that it's had and if you're doing that then you're not doing them will persisting of taking it under consideration you can if you've if you've already denied it before the Senate has been completed you're not doing the normal person thing with the feedback that normal people do with feedbacks in in a moving vehicle that you're ever going to have any interested you've never asked me to do that though I guess I'm confused about what you're asking me for I thought that you wanted me to deliver the Elder told me to do you literally just said am I incorrect are you asking me to do whatever the elders tell me to do or are you asking me to quietly consider their feedback and have my own opinion about your whole life so far too confusing all feedback you've ever received you would be a different man right now not because you're obeying somebody because somebody else and letting somebody else run your life but because you're a man who quietly contemplates feedback don't know what that does to a man would say you've never done it you just fight but I understand that I'm not have anything to do with that I guess I don't understand what you asking nothing saying is that's why nobody wants to give you a list because nobody's trying to run your life you asked me to do whatever they asked me to do I different and much more manageable be fine that would be fine that would be absolutely fine with me no I don't I don't regard that as fine but I did regard that as what you had previously asked me to do this well I don't know how to help you Dustin what you did on Easter with the paper shredder would of course want to end person with five or six sensibilities and what I'm saying is it shows me that your perception of interpersonal relationship is way off from the norm it's disturbing it's destructive it's controlling based on there that you would be wise to make it a priority to listen to other people's judgment and count it as more valuable than your own judgment and if you have that teachable Spirit if you took feedback in a humble serious contemplative manner can you would be capable of making some of these better decisions I don't think anybody wants to tell you what to do I mean when you go in saying awful things about errands you won't even make you live or you can't even be specific about what characteristics are these mix only General literature it's because he's not trying to control your life trying to give you helpful feedback I know but he does he does he does give you specific feedback about specific behaviors but he's not trying to control your life he's not trying to make you a puppet he's hoping that you would have genuine remorse and heart change to want to sneak in that something you talked to you about a lot like counting your own wisdom as superior to the wisdom of people around you like he talked to you about that a lot and he showed it was in the Bible a lot and it you bucked him on it at every turn it doesn't make sense to listen to somebody else's judgment Nobody Does that nobody does something that they don't think is that but but I'm telling you they do this is a pathological fifty it's basically impossible know technologists with every month now literally physically impossible and no psychologists would acknowledge that that's an ability they absolutely do manage I have that that's my that's my whole life at the last July is what I've done my whole life has been deferred to your judgment I I thought the last statement of basic is planted that you're going to be able to convince of this argument you're trying to make right here because I'm living proof that you can defer to someone else judgment over your own I know what I think is best example I think I knew I was think it's best I do what I think is wise I know what judgment is and I listen to Justin and I hear Justin's perspective and I know it is radically different from what I believe is best and I choose to go with that judgment I just did it it's not impossible I just do it and other men do it all the time just do it it doesn't mean in the back of your mind you don't go well by stop and think about this I could probably make a better decision you understand that people have to exist in relation with other people and if other people are going to have different judgments sometimes one of those other judgments is actually going to work out better than your own yeah I don't want to argue with you I do want you to have more time to grow and I want you to have a a place what's that want to argue with you want you to have time to be able to the person that you want to be to have a happy life life is like it doesn't matter and and and and again if it component is for you though to take that time to think about how you can work on yourself without involving me in that Chrome heard you say that a lot I'm not sure how to do it but I will see what I can do because just take a as much time as you've invested in touch with me into having conversations about this stuff with you and that try to but instead like send that exact same amount of time in prayer I spend that exact same amount of time trying to prove to Erin Bell that you're a trustworthy person to engage in these kinds of conversations with or then that exact same amount of time reading the Bible you know what I'm saying or spend that exact same amount of time if you think you're stuck with psychology that you need to understand or coupon or I don't know I don't know what that whole process like for you or there could be a million other things I mean you know there's plenty of ways to spend your time besides trying to rope your life into proof of phone conversations off I tried to repeat everything you just did it did you see that you needed to find yourself again instead of thinking about what I was actually saying which was that you could read the Bible right so if you were taking what I was saying as feedback you would hear what I said and you would go that would have been a whole lot of hours of Bible study if I could go back in time and trade my time on the phone with my wife for Bible study I wonder if I would be the same in right now as I am you know you'd be having these thoughts and you would be contemplating but instead you never even got a chance to contemplate them because your reflex was I never said that I'm not trying to rope You Into Fitness phone conversations you see the difference in terms of ability to grow yep if I do this Christmas thing you want to be a part of that or no I'm pretty sure we I think you said it should matter to you I don't so doesn't matter what should matter to me like I I don't understand her agree with that you're interested in using that program as a way to bring me back into crazy talk with you it's not I don't know enough about the program to even know that that is a possibility I would write each each team members wait there's a video for you to watch and you probably can my Brett I would hope you could let your accountability too much that video too and then every even-numbered week There's a phone number like a covered call but they teaching you how to submit yourself to accountability with people in your real life stop the minimizing and mind and brain shifting and if you can hear what I'm saying about why I need you to be able to receive feedback in a healthy way and how that's what would show me that you're actually changing and you can go into Chris Rowles understanding when he tries to encourage you not to minimize the Nyan Blankenship so that's why not because he is pro-woman and anti man or may not consider the cognitive distinctions and like but take it for the constructive thing that it is and then put that into practice with the men from our church that doesn't have to involve me okay I didn't get the impression that CA wants to be involved in that program you don't want to be able to send it out know if any of them are going to want to be involved in it I was probably that by putting up the money he was encouraging you to do something that you didn't really want to do because you would Express to him he told you expecting him that you don't see yourself as an abuser and don't think that that programs appropriate for you which means that you don't think that you'll get anything out of it off and you expressed that you weren't interested in the accountability model because that had been a destructive and that helpful thing for you in the past and then you came back to him after you came back to him after registration had closed and told him Belarus making me do it so I think that his concern was your showing that you don't want to make the kinds of changes that Chris moles encourages people to make so if you're not wanting to make those changes it seems that your idea what kind of changes he's going to ask me to make sure you have to be willing to hear feedback and submit yourself to an accountability team with your local church body off if those are not changes that you are interested in making then you're not going into the program for the reason that the other men have gone into the program you're not going into the program because you want to make the changes with the program is going to encourage you to make so if you're going into the program for a secret reason it seems like that reason might be to try to convince your lungs that you're doing everything she's asked you to do and you're trying to convince your wife to stop the Horseshoe and and so and so if that's the goal is to just stop your wife from divorcing you or if that's your goal is to tell your wife I mean everything you told me to do that something that is not really good for me and I don't think she wants to do anything that's ultimately going to be not very good for me I think if you're going into it for the right reason if you're saying I can see that my stubbornness and wanting to Buck accountability has not turned out for well for me I can see that interrupting people to try to defend myself or proof that there are choosing the appropriation do dead that hasn't actually worked out so well for me I want to change I want to live differently I want to I want to actually understand this concept of considering somebody else's judgement before my own I want to seriously consider that as being a possibility I'm sure that people would be willing to interact with you if you're coming to it with a humble heart and a genuine desire to make those kinds of changes I'm sure CA just doesn't want you to roll it in a way that's going to further traumatize me and keep me you know like I'm saying right now keep me wrapped up and having to spend money you know time and fruitless conversations like this so I'm telling you that if you're going to get out of it what you need to get out of it you're going to be able to do that with or without me okay so you don't want to be a part of it that's not what I said I said that the fact that you're trying to think of something what my involvement is going to be worth it to help you make a decision about whether or not to do it in a big old website right now I didn't have the fact I know you're trying to nail me you're trying to pin me down on whether or not whether or not I'm going to be involved or not and I'm saying I see that question because it's not safe for me to give you information that if you spend the $1,600 and say he'll do this program now you've got me wrapped back to amount of time each week that I'm going to communicate with you like that I'm not willing to answer that question because that's not the right reason to enter the program the right reason and this program is I have your wife's you've decided that you weren't to make these changes because you can see that the way and living has not been working very well and that you're willing to do the hard work that it takes to make these changes even if she doesn't speak to you for the next six months I think if you ever do live in the same room without you know that all right honey time up get out of it what you want to get out of it that's good for you and you want to just text me when you get off work on Friday or do you want to go ahead and tell me did you want to go ahead and tell me a time I'll probably be there by 6 latest 6:00 or earlier if it needs to be did you say 6:00 okay bye