speaker 1:  this call may be recorded press one to accept hello Mommy happy birthday do you have a good day yes okay what getting paid my mom got cupcakes but I got one of those cookie cakes from Publix and eat it instead of the cookie cake cool I listen to that call but I'm still thinking about it from Sunday
speaker 2: no why
speaker 1: is that what am I thinking about it I think I thought you wanted needed say if I was good with the things that are and did and we're not line you mean that's what you thought I was asking for in the phone call yeah misunderstanding maybe a little bit cuz the only thing I asked you was like over a week ago when you put it on your list that I'm going to make the list of things that he said that were untrue that was what I asked and then the separate conversation on some day I don't think I was really asking you anything was I can't have a relationship in the future if we can agree that that's not really a question though I'm I'm telling you it's just me giving you information okay I guess I was trying to resolve that in my mind cuz I do not feel that way well it's not a feeling it I'm giving you a boundary on my end it's not something for you to agree or disagree with its the boundary is the boundary and it doesn't change just because you don't think it's what it should be easier it's not what it would take it you or me not really I mean I think I think maybe I was explaining to you why like to me it's clear that you've spent like a lot of time figuring out what you can do to vilify him and mm have you come up with all these strategies for you know things that will actually stick that you can that you can say about him that would make people go oh that's not a salesperson or who he he can't trust him know for me for me being you and Thursday night I'm just saying like Saturday instead of your mom's been a guinea pig pets been a guinea pig Nathan said a guinea pig like you can tell the story and see which aspects wage that are going to stick which seems make people go oh yeah that really is a terrible Pastor you can't trust him stay away from that guy oh yeah I see this all the time and churches like I figured out what is a good method of attack for Erin Bell and now it's going on whatsoever is dead you're you've got something that you can click to that allow you to say this is person I'm not going to trust his judgment this is the person I'm not going to set myself up to be accountable to and I'm saying that I spent time on Sunday going through and explaining how some of those things work. really consistent with the reality it was really just your Distortion of how you want to make it sound like it went down and it's believable the people who were not there but for people who were there you're asking me specifically back to alter my perception and not trust my perception and instead accept your perception that you're feeding me as being more real than my own experience and that's a form of psychological manipulation if you want me to believe that he irresponsibly wage was accusing you of having mental health problems when I was there and that's not the way down there and when dead I'm just saying you're telling me that you want me to believe that and I'm telling you I'm telling you that happens I'm telling you I'm going to somehow. That's my brain not to remember it happening it's not enough I'm telling you that's a distortion because on the other end that they going to you're going to complain that he should have that you to a medical profession and we're not going to worry about it so he shipped to a mental health professional but he didn't thought that was really so irresponsible just taking both poles of it a pastor who is overly eager never said the psychological crap and a Pastor Jeff at is not accurate what I'm saying is you should not engage in pathologizing people to their spouse when they have no experience or well they put the store that you're saying he's not ever going to accept that he has apologized to me when that definitely did not happen I will never believed and I know that you telling me to believe something other than what actually happened to put you in a position of being able to abuse me because they're not accountable to other people who can stop you from being abusive and I'm saying there's a lot of situations that but because you are an abuser because you are in a better place if not because you are in fact that you won't actually go see a psychologist or it's like hey address with me to establish that it is not fake it's not safe for a victim to go to counseling with their abuser I you know that you know that I have professionals involved and know that I I found just to you you don't need to find me this way Dustin you don't need to do a g o the same. It has been done it's been done and you know that I'm not going to stop this is you've done this if if you did to me when you asked me to believe something other than what happened so you can stop saying something other than what happened so you want me to believe that Aaron pathologized to me that's what I'm not lying telling you didn't have it recorded those meetings because you didn't change it every single time yes I did know yes I did and you specifically said I'm not allowed to yes I did I did page so you started cutting out any sort of documentable means of I think indications were happening between us and then accusing you were meeting with them I said to record those meetings I said we should only text each other off that's not true and I I remaining with him we were working on our marriage I was the one that you guys are constantly accusing me of lying like you're doing right now I said can you provide me any examples and you would say no so I say well can you record these meetings and Thursday no that's not true that's not true yes it is that's not true it's not trying to Destin that that you asked me to record the meeting when I had already moved out I had already ceased attending meetings with Ed Sheeran and I had already decided to divorce you and I told you that I would like to talk about divorce to record meeting between us when you're not there I'm talking about when you were their age after record the meeting you don't have to interrupt me I'm telling you that didn't happen I'm telling you you might be a memory I'm telling you you might be super imposing a memory of a time that you brought up Republic recording meetings that happened later and imagining that it happens sooner but I'm telling you a specifically when it happened and I know exactly where I was standing while I was on the phone with you in the house and the reason that I'm just an extension of that same behavior that happened in those meetings and is in evidence why it's not correct but I'm crazy in lying and evidence that we do have problems communicating and we do need to be yep no. Service yeah forever like this is exactly that's why it makes sense for you to go see a therapist on your life now who's lying does he does that as well as I do that's why you want a fresh start do you want to get rid of everything that you don't believe is a marriage because I was there. Since I was there so was I buy anything any therapist should be able to recognize there's very very standard concept that people have different perceptions of things but yeah I don't know what to tell you other than what you said have you manipulate money by saying I have to accept what the same as my little evidence of me finding your whatever but yeah I mean that's why you think if we need surgery I agree with you and I'm willing to get in Houston I am a victim You Are I Am need a fuse prevention this job is to help exact exactly why errands participation in this was not helpful I have nothing to do with it have everything to do with it is not the one who totally I disagree with that completely you guys constantly claim that I was lying when there were no lies taking place you constantly you relying on July it is dead also said that you had a justifiable basis to divorce me because I supposedly at the end and you which is not even remotely accurate listen to me he never ever told me that now he told me that it doesn't matter if he told you that and I was very in the meeting when you said it so I don't know what you're talking about he didn't tell you that but your your ladder to the elders claimed that he said it came with the elders that's why I don't have that letter but I don't I don't well that's what it says that's the other thing you didn't say the other if he did the first page of it was when you sent me that letter that was addressed to the elders first time I ever heard a breath about Aaron Bells opinion about this is for the variable that doesn't matter of opinion don't bring it out if it's not it doesn't matter relative to when you knew about it it's still his opinion in the influence the way that he supposedly gave us marriage counselling but I don't know I don't really want to argue about it that you were abusing me in front of him he did everything he could go back I think that that is an extremely poor characterization of having a discussion about an emotional affair and he kept it to them this is the and do not have any discussion about an emotional affair I was trying to have a conversation about that and you were using unbelievably creepy psychologically abusive weird emotionally damaging tactics to do everything but talk about an emotional affair you have so yeah I would say if you would like to have a conversation with one of our professional or they can substantiate your claims but somehow I made him you that would be awesome and I would love of that'd be able to do that but it was not helpful doing it with air and he did not help clarify any sort of pattern of abuse that's not true well it would be great if you could describe something but accurately which would be a lot easier if we recorded our meeting time he did it in real time while it was happening and he would say oh you're lying about something I'd say great what's not true but I can't explain it to you or I'm not going to give you an example it's yes it is off and over and over and over and over I guess it is that's not and he wrote in his letter I have a pattern of but I don't have the letter in front of me is it in his super letter to our elder or from our elders I had a whatever whatever it was but he said no he asked you to get an evaluation which was the responsible thing to do and you know it that's a responsible thing to do is not responding to characterize me to my wife as having problems but he can't even describe himself let alone Technologies great because he did he didn't but he didn't he didn't like something that word right now making stuff up to try anything up from people who actually took a slight you and set an order for me to be safe with you you have to agree with every word he ever spoke and there's never going to happen whatever then I'm not ever going to agree with me that I'm going to keep that never going to agree with everything that he said and I'm not going to abuse view this literally ridiculous doing it right now so isolated me from his is abuse him know I am I know that's a lie that was a few things for you to say to me it was sent to guilt me to pay me and mock my opinion you shouldn't have said that it was not ever going to agree with Joe hey I don't know how to get it's okay for you to try to tell me that I need to marry a man who's already married and my pastor that's not open sorry that that is weird and I'm telling you that it is abusive for you to engage and tactics that are meant to isolate me for being able by professional accountable to God every single professional psychiatric person that I have interacted with characterizes that relationship and behavior and extremely common and extremely destructive and the financially irresponsible so I just did a great job to participate in it let's give you a round while you painted that picture to somebody who doesn't go it anything else cuz they weren't there wow amazing I'm still getting a picture for your therapist and that's why you know how to prevent that meant to be a relationship that gets paid money to do it with a relationship therapist comes from their European that's not the point the point is to see a marriage counselor a marriage counselor I said seeing a marriage counselor Dustin one that sees both of you and gets the perspective of both people okay to go to Abuse Prevention program before that's a safe thing for me to do I do not agree with that well it's the fact is it but if you plan on going through for the coming out the other end say I'm not going to be accountable to Erin Bell and I'm not going to agree that I'm abuser then you might as well pack that whatsoever okay so you should go through the program so that you can come out at the other end understanding how you commited abuse on your wife for Seventeen years and go to the Edge program so you can come out on the other end I agree with that accountable the people who see these patterns and utilized in front of their own two eyes. Somebody who you can Hood with that thought ever going to be I trust Aaron Bells judgment more than my own I'm not going to do that illogical. I'm terrible normal people wake up everyday doubting their own perceptions and wondering if they understand this correctly and when they hear other people's perceptions question normal people question their own beliefs and wonder if they have it wrong and wonder if they are The Crazy Ones and wonder if they need to integrate the other person's perspective and use it to replace their own belief system that's normally extremely good at that uncharacteristically good at that and so when I tell you that he handled the situation wrong careful consideration of of what actual actions I play in a position of power and control over your victim that's what you're carefully considering what do I need to say about this person young people that I shouldn't have even being a big literally given you everything you know that's not that's not true that's not true age what did you just say I said that's not true what were you saying before you said that's not true I'm not sure what you're referring to remember the sentence you just said I thought that's I said that's not true that's not true that's true now before that country I don't know I'm not sure I mean I'm sure whatever it is I remember that I'm not sure what you're referring to so I can't help you walk home so I don't know what it was that you wanted to think about regarding what she said on Sunday but it's what you were trying to think of was a way to convince me to change my position then you don't need to waste time posting about it does then we're done we're getting a divorce you're never going to be safe for me I don't agree with that I'm not asking you to agree with it I'm telling you that's what's going to happen right thanks for letting me know I've let you know that before plenty of times I've told you that Sunday was not the first time that I told you that that was going to be a requirement is that the only thing I do not find Aaron Bells Behavior a hundred percent professional I think he gave me some advice that was good I think he did lots of things that were harmful but all the things you know that you say were harmful actually happened that's not true and I can't nobody tell you the truth I would never lie to you and I did tell them that you're lying to me you don't understand what a lie is I do I understand but a lot are you don't I do a lie that I have a difference of opinion about what professional behavior is and it's not going to be it's not going to change I got my opinion based on psychologist ever say is your wife that she needs to let you keep abusing her that's consistently been professional Behavior with every person I met with the things that will get that are favorable things that will get me to back down are favorable the things that will get me to question whether it's all my fault are favorable the things that will get need to take responsibility to anybody in your life better but favorable to support you more or favorable wage but you know it's I don't know you you've done that I hired the Bachelor Pad close the devoted as much time as I could possibly do to analyzing myself to being open and transparent with people that there's there's literally nothing more that I can do so it yes sir is then the more thing that I can do is we can go to couples counseling office at some of these issues together somebody that knows both of us used conventions program does not until you recognize that you are an abuser and not until you figure out I think that abuse and that controlling Behavior not repent of that not until you decide that what you're working at is learning how to stop abusing me well that would be great to work out with a counselor but not on the roof not with me in the room that's not okay to be able to figure out anything if you don't give some examples of what your concerns are they don't need me to do that because you already know it's just weird codel 6675 hours. How much time I have spent a verbalizing to use the many many many 675 hours what is that we've logged hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours off unbelievably specific with exact specific that you're lying where I haven't told you specifically yep cuz that's the one by the truth is I told my social functions and close to you and told you example after you told me your perceptions of Life nope not true not true not true I've always given you specific examples that and and and most of the time I do a long time while you're abusing me I told me today out let's say you're doing it again there you're doing it again that's a great example of something that anybody can understand that's that's true you're lying to me right now to try to get me to question my reality reality zero support for your completely made-up perception just doesn't match anything that's actually happened that I thought well if you experience the party of abuse rate that's crazy what you're saying is that you want to get me alone in a room with a person who have no background knowledge and get me stay over the years that I've already said and said and said and said and said and said so that you can be said yourself against them and praying that I'm just imagining it and prove that it's 5% wage because I'm a woman and I have emotions and I'm so hurt that I don't see how genuine you are and I perceive something as being hurtful when really it's just extraordinary really love it please counselor to me not home to see how charming and wonderful I am and counselor can explain oh don't you see how Dustin's trying to love you right now and I'll have to go oh I didn't see how wonderful it is first to that yes this is being heard all along what you're basically saying is Well if I don't get everything that I want then I'm going to I'm being dead it says the snow is gas-lighting me your gas lighting me I have to have to get it to thing I want I have only met ask for you to stop specific abusive behaviors so it is extraordinary least psychologically abusive for you to try to get me to own the lie that I am a woman I talked with you if I don't get everything I want I am the most low maintenance woman do have ever met and if you met a million more women I would still be the most little Vegas woman you had ever met and you know that so don't try to get me to believe lies about myself that also you could get everything on you know that page true and it is gas-lighting and it is psychological trying to get me to believe something about myself that is not true about my God hi I Know Myself very well I know I know level things have to get to in order for me to consider it abuse I know I know how capable I am of gave me not saying things that are basically the things that are basically decent person would do to their spouse I know my potentials to overlook treatment of neglect neglect and you don't need to ask me the question what I know about myself that's not right you you're taking away my identity strategically you know your identity if you yeah if if that's your identity then we will not be together but what I think I know that's what I'm telling you Dustin what you right now absolutely not okay it is absolutely effusive you are absolutely not walk away your identity I know but you're trying to convince me that if I don't get everything I want then I call it abuse well guess what that is contrary to the fact is that I am suffering my truck is that I don't need to get everything I want my truth is that I don't even actually have anyone else other than what's best for my family of what honors gone the truth about me is I'd low-maintenance the truth about me is that I can go for Seventeen years being abused before I'm willing to be confident same things what you want is your opinion of everything to be with everybody else thinks that's not going to be true that you know anybody else in the world it's not it's not it is a great attempt at gaslighting and you did have to tell you that we don't agree with my we still have a good seventeen year run where I would have capitulated to it because I thought it was my job to keep the peace I did spend Seventeen years trying to figure out what I needed to say and avoid saying in order to keep you happy that's true I'm sorry that you feel that way but it's not a feeling. I know that and that you now regret it I you don't need to be sorry. I own that I know who I am you can't take that away from me I know myself I know my identity trying to take anything away from you you are you want me to believe that it's you want me to believe that if I don't get everything I want I have a name is a perception area that's what life is up there is objective reality and I know things that have actually happened if you don't even care of home we have a very different view of things that have actually happened and that but you you think that the way for us to come to some reconciliation without therapy you can't have reconciliation repentance and Rehabilitation I can only be repented for things that I actually did this I can only be repentant for things that I perceive that I did and I just remember them remember we went to that Homeschool Convention and we had that talk on memory and you said this amazing thing to remember that he said memory is necessary for repentance well then we got a problem cuz you say that a lot of things I have no memory of but honestly that's quite convenient for them yeah cuz that's what causes you to not ownership of abusive committed whenever you can't refute it anymore you suddenly don't remember it off if that somehow makes it not something you did or makes it questionable whether it even happened that serves the gas like me everything you say is equally not refutable or refutable is that's based on interactions that we had together alone that's not true life okay so for you what you think is irrefutable and for what for me what I think is irrefutable I I wish I could be on the same page with you about everything that our lives easier if it makes you happy to process how you've abused me and you need to agree with her and abuser abused you would have no future it's over it's over it's actually over we're actually done and it's actually forever and it's actually for the protection of me and the protection of our children not grow up in a home that is driven by domestic abuse I don't know what to do to help you these methods of psychological and emotional abuse and and haven't been sick and haven't been explored in front of a professional what are unsubstantiated and haven't been explored in front of her professional and have been aggravated by a pastor no that's not true yes it is you can say that about the pastor because you know that he is willing to protect me from your abuse and that he's not going to put up with you lying right in front of him and pretend that what you're saying is true just because you're playing if you could describe something as being alive I I would take ownership of it like my feelings for Julie were obviously not proportional to a friendship that is obvious that I can own I can't own oh and lied there were so many times I can't own something that doesn't exist because you can say what it is it's not true we named it specifically in real time as it was happening for example they would say, I don't have any examples that's true you're allowed time in multiple settings both with you and without you have any tables but it's not recording with the album the meetings were saying you actually just have that two minutes ago when he would say no I didn't say that and we would be like we all just heard you say that you could say that wage you can't afford that mean one thing and say they mean something else skip White that is that is a bizarre way to divert attention from the fact that you were lying for a long period of time are you listening to me I said I can own a lie if it's described as being followed and something that I actually said or did I obviously am doing for Julie generic generalization that happening constantly that was pretty much all of our tables. What happened with your trying to convince me that someone came to you I said you have a pattern of lying that didn't happen until month and in the letter that happened in a meeting I know one hour out of the week when you were communicating with them while I was at work and that was months after people were in a room with you with a group of people so that we could be that we were all experiencing the same things in real time telling you specifically what you were lying as you were saying the lies you keep talking about Julie Choi talking about 10 pathologizing me as being a liar when I wasn't talking about Julie if he did that he would have bombs onto it you're accusing me of it now and you won't see a therapist to substantiate it or not not killing a lot it's a lot don't lies it's a lot that's why you're literally doing it right now they don't conversations that happened between me and Aaron when you weren't there you've decided that that he told me that his wife who was part of our therapy while I was at work I stayed up that you did that you didn't communicate with it with Allison why wasn't present well yeah but you also communicated exactly but it's not all those are making up the fact that those conversations you telling me I'm not you're telling me that he told me that you have a pathology you're telling me that he told you okay that he told me it was okay to divorce because you deserved it I mean either completely fabricated you know you're you're telling me in the early there weren't there but the substance was and you you can't walk but I can tell you I can tell you that he said keep praying for Justin I can tell you that he said he has been talking about what do you why are you saying I wasn't there you're trying to say that it was having these conversations where he was convincing me that there was something wrong with you by glass but you just said that you didn't have any choices without me I thought you were just claiming that you didn't have any conversations without me no no I'm saying that you're making up that we were having all these conversations that like you knew what was being said you're making up when you said it was okay to divorce you you're making up that you said that there was something wrong with I was there and he said that and I thought you were saying that you guys were in communication without me but now I find out that you were you're just communicating with Allison which is basically the same as he was obviously part of the I know I don't understand why you're acting like this is scandalous you were talking to him too I mean it says not literally just told me on the phone call that you weren't interacting with him without me no I was saying that you're making up that all these conversations were happening while you were at work and I get that you interrupted my sentence but that doesn't change the fact what I'm trying to say is that you can't say that Aaron was convincing me that you have pathologies you're making up also find that behavior if you were communicating with him while I was at work I find that to be a disturbing and inappropriate oh okay I don't think that there's a professional out there that inappropriate that's exactly I'm not a professional in the world that would recommend that as appropriate for what we were dealing with that is why it was what you're saying right now is disturbing and inappropriate that you are being disturbing and you are a lot of money and effort and into the into the the truth the reality where your password is something inappropriate like I hear you I hear you but you understand what they were going off of is the basis that you were saying you wanted to kill yourself that you were majorly depressive and you couldn't function off so so they're looking at proof is in the pudding invite you in our sessions to substantiate your claims of abuse and lying and you did not participate that's not my job because that's that's not my job for you to parade me in front of somebody who knows nothing except how Charming you are and how kind you are and how good we can look that is not appropriate for the user to do to his victims and it is not appropriate for a mental health professional to allow that to happen I wish I could help with this you to mock me and used me but I do like the fact that I will allow you to parade me in front of somebody who knows nothing about what actually happened the point is that sometimes not ma'am job to subject myself to that it is not evidence that it didn't happen to me I don't know I'm at a last giving you the best advice that I've been able to come up with you're giving me advice that's not appropriate okay did you want to act like all those conversations were just trying to process your emotional affair with me and that's not what you made it into I didn't make it into anything we never should have gotten married you should have married somebody else all I can think when I see you walking down the aisle is what a tragedy at all is off on the video I know so what's your point I'm saying that you were engaging in a lot of weird stuff and and none of them had anything to do with either one of the professional psychiatrists it what I would characterize that as abuse it wasn't about you and Julie though we were not feeding about you and Julie and is any of your mental health professionals think that that was happening because you had an inappropriate relationship with Julie then they don't understand the first thing about what was happening in the first place because you know what a man having an emotional day here at work it's a supernormal thing that lots of couples go through and need counseling for work with Heaven that's not what happened Justin that is not that is so high like a tiniest little details that it's about as consequential as if you happen to have a sit on your nose one of those weeks like that's a footnote that's not the substance of why we were needle needing help all right like you're not remembering nevermind what no I'm not going to do it I'm not going to do it you have enough evidence of the ways that you've abused me already dead and all you're doing is sharpening your skills for how you can try to make the things you did seem like a normal thing so that when we finally do get in front of a third party you're going to be really good at making me look crazy because you know all the things that I'm going to accuse you of and you know all the ways that you can explain them away to make it sound like I'm making a big mess I've trying to make you look crazy I tried to get you in a mental health professionals so that I could get help but there's something that I'm doing wrong I want help that's not true increase that's not true that's not true yet I can't I can't keep doing the again good because you need to stop it's a beautiful and it needs to stop you can't do this you can't you can't keep doing this you can't you can't yes minimizing denying and blaming are abusive all right you can't stop doing it conversation with extremely indicative of how harmful our interactions with our church was this has nothing to do with our church just as well I don't agree with that and I don't matter when I'm trying to argue with you on your birthday this is can you can you call to make up a lie that our church has nothing to do with you thinking about it only appropriate for a victim to say off there are boundaries to you being with me and I'm not going to be with you while you're claiming that the abuse of things you've done are not abusive that is so healthy you have a do you have an enumerated any issues that they are a liar you want me to believe the lie that I have an enumerated it that's a lie all right that's a lot you can say it as much as I know that you've been given hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of examples and macro examples and micro examples of specific behaviors not labeled not generalizations not take reservations the specific behaviors and when you try to convince me that I'm taking care of like I abandoned you cuz not even remotely true what what what I don't want to argue with you anymore I just don't then don't talk to you on your birthday hi Larry depending attack noon contact I haven't made a lot of progress past couple days off that's not okay Dustin thank you for reading it's not okay for you to spend multiple weeks on taxes it's not okay for you to say I'll let you know when they're done it's okay for you to file them at 9 tonight regardless but it's not okay for you to spend as much of your time on this planet on taxes as you spend on taxes it's not okay nobody else does it it's not okay with you it's not it's not okay yeah and how long I guess I'll make an arrangement for you to be able to find them when I'm done with them but I don't know I don't know if that's required or not I was just debating how we will be able to sign them and send them I don't know if you require to find them I mean that doesn't matter what matters is that they should have been done a long time ago what matters is that you recognize that it's not normal to spend this much time on them and it's not okay to spend as much time on them don't recognize that they need to do it's not okay it's not okay you cannot live this way anymore and you never should have you never should have in the first place not even once not even once should you ever had had a single year where you spent multiple weeks doing taxes doing taxes doing taxes doing taxes day after day or night after night never that's never okay you want to do I'm going down my list of things to do no you need to just file them you have no concept of what that even means it's not my fault that's the power and control 6:30 which I will do as fast as I can and you not actually having to do anything on your list because you have an excuse because the first item is one that can take as long as I wanted to take pretty sure that that I was going to do relative to Erin Bell is not relevant and that's the only thing left on the list that you have given me is taxes and when that's done with it you're doing it you're doing it doing taxes now I'm going as fast as I can I know but you're still going to make that list and the taxes need to be done by midnight tonight I'm going to be even remotely close to done by midnight tonight that's not okay you know even talking about you I do I do I know that this is not an acceptable way to spend your time if not okay. Nobody else being me and I'm not concerned with your opinion of my tax skills that's strange it is you don't need to do then you do them I'm trying to do that by the service fees that you kept records in 2018 in a way that specifically prohibits that from being a possibility so that's why I say that it maintains a position of you having power and control over me because not only do you have to be the one I do the taxes on my behalf because the way that you have structured things but you get to have as much time as you determine you're going to spend on them not being accountable for how you're spending your time because this is this magical thing that there's no option but for you to spend as much time as it takes mean while neglecting your family's actual needs and this has been going on for years you have no concept of your life does for his family you have no concept of the amount what time that a man spends actually doing things for his family because you think that you're doing things for your family all this time that you're working on houses and you're not you think that you're doing with your family while you're filing taxes and you're not these are not productive things these are not earning US money these are not feeding our children food these are just squandering your entire life away but you need to either actually make that list about Aaron belt I asked you to make sure that's a lie need to see the entire argument about this I know we're nearly an hour so there's no point write down these allegations about it's important we've written them down on a recording I've asked you to come up with your list I've asked you to think through it I've asked you I told you that when I was working on and I thought you said that there was no point but I will still do it off you said you were working on taxes I said that there were two items on the list and one of them was making the list about Aaron and that it was pointless because she said that it was pointless and I told you that I sent this evening listening to our Sunday night phone call and considering my thoughts on the matter and you said well unless you agree with me a hundred percent then it's pointless well yeah because because you have to be you have to be open to the possibility that he didn't do all of the things that you were assuming that he did and you have to be open to the possibility that you've been coming up with a lot of excuses for isolating me from the Council of somebody who is extremely honorable and has he was excellent discretion and excellent appropriateness you have to be open to that possibility because we're getting divorced or not I don't agree with you as an opportunity to see your strategy is going to be home by that person instead of heat their councils then it's not safe to be with you you have an enumerated any changeable examples of abuse is all based on his characterization that I abandoned you and and and find that I was meaning things with statements that I didn't mean is that's a lie like those are all lives if we had a recording that would be one thing or if she write down some accusations himself that would be another thing but an absence of any of that I've literally got nothing to go on with it therapist I could go to anti abuse counseling and I would still have nothing from you to go on from them with that package you have what I have what would I have hundreds of hours of recordings and I have pointed out yeah in our phone calls I pointed out last a long time in our phone calls I've pointed out blame-shifting in real time it's all based on perception of our past that is so you want me to pull enough to be in a room with somebody while you convince the counselor that it's all my perception of the past and what's the difference I would like a professional opinion about that the phone recording isn't going to get abused and humiliated by you the difference is that the phone recording is just recording so if she is safe from your abuse I'm an actual person and I don't deserve to be put in that situation recording that if you want to try to get them to counseling with you that would be way more productive I have cuz he's not he's not your target victim so so that's a person to reconcile with that's the person you need to reconcile with don't need direct and filed with Aaron valve you absolutely my professional therapist is to not even be in that church sewed yeah about as reconciled as I can delusions and he knows that delusions are dangerous to you and you wants to figure out how to keep you from killing yourself I think that you are extremely inaccurate and like Larry terapi environment that just outright lies to their patients they represented the fax it to me he's not able to be a judge or a referee as to whether what you're telling him actually happened he's not exactly I know but I know what actually happened I know I know you said is not the whole picture and I know that the information I'm going to my therapist is the whole picture I know and you want me to question my reality because I should feel ashamed of what I believe in life and everything that I think is right back anybody else's perspective is pathological I think that they would say that that that's fine that's what you would suck for making in front of them so they could say that I must be pathological if I don't want you I want you to live on you want support I think you can good thing I love and be cared for you know but here's the thing that said my reality but not just my it's not just my perception like I actually know what actually happens between us and I'm confident in that and I'm not going to be shamed by you by that making me pathological that I won't question my own reality I'm not going to do it that that's that's definitely a horrific tactic for you to use against each other and I just want us to have days of communicating we could be on the same page and not leave an Ultimate Reality that's what I want
speaker 2: I
speaker 1: would like for us to have the skills to communicate and our normal conversation not have absolute fantasy does he want me to join you in a complete Fantasy Life I did for 17 years and it was great because it got you to get me Port whatever insane whole riffic abuse of things you were doing to our family because I joined you in with an alternate reality was and you want back to that I don't want to go back to anything like that when you can be off at Pine Ridge and the covering for you and telling everybody that you're such a financial I'm not saying that you liked it but I'm saying you enjoyed having a woman I would cover for you you enjoyed not having woman who went around town saying he's frittering away on the tire line she's not good to our children I'm overwhelmed extremely good to her children if I hit that I'm not able to handle months pregnant and nursing two toddlers then he embarrasses me and makes me think that I'm the reason that he's never going to be successful in life but you don't want me talking that way I don't think that would be covering for you don't think it means that I can't be successful in life I know but that's what you would say bath in order to get cuz you were you did what what I say that is it even believe that my wife there's been saving so I can't be successful Dustin if I would hit that it was overwhelming and I needed you to stop going then I would be it would be turned on me in that way you knew exactly how to turn things around on me to make me own that it was my responsibility and not complain about your crazy work hours it was my responsibility to buy into this idea that you've doing it because after this next cowslip we're going to be so independently wealthy you can take a whole year off if he wants to because that was the delusion that you made me buy into I mean I I don't recall representing that I would be taking a year off of work but I do agree with you that I was working way too much thousand dollars you were going to make a hundred thousand dollars in three months that's what we had to do was happening for that been a what we had to pretend was happening that that that you were putting it in on the front desk attendant to pay off $1,000 and three months off yeah you did you would say that this constant you just bought was going to be ready to sell in three months and you would you would say that it was going to be $100,000 profit and that's not a reasonable completely completely reasonable thing for a house flipper to actually accomplish but if I I'm saying that you made an environment where if I try to act like I wanted you to stop doing that then you would shame me as if I didn't understand how long was worth the time and you would shame me as if I didn't understand how this was about to pay off and you would shame me as if I didn't understand that you were going to be spending so much more time with our family home as soon as the slip was done but you know you've know that I was not allowed to actually say Justin stop it now. Working more than forty hours a week and come be with your family you know that I was not allowed to do that you know that I because of the relationship and there's there's like negotiations between us not to crease just like getting involved in playing with the security system happen we were not negotiating I was required to wholeheartedly jump on board with whatever your dream in life was and I did it and you do I was doing it while I was doing you knew that I was supposed to do that as a victim of me when we were making decisions together that was not forcing you said that's not sure any time you have ever asked me to be at home at present or something for your needs I've always made it a priority and I always did will like that's not true. it had to be an extreme emergency for me to call you and you know it for you to suffer you to be good it's not on me it's not it's not you can't put that on me you can't put years of extreme abuse and neglect on me she cuz I didn't complain badly enough like you send me all the time for complaining too much you would quote that Bible verse about the better to live on a rooftop than with a completely wise like you acted like I could have never done that that's not true you are absolutely did you absolutely did okay you absolutely did it's so long for you to represent your abuse and neglect as being me being part of the team you know that if I would talk to you about me needing you to watch t you would I can't do that that's how horrible that you would ask that of me if I talked to this going back to Fidelity I know I'm just saying like you should treat me that way if I'm walking that way cuz I have an actual need there's no such thing as a need for me to work at Fidelity but there's a need for you to not work more than sometimes forty hours if we can't get sometimes sixty hours a week I mean that's that's real South Korea with you but I'm saying like I wasn't actually allowed to express those needs without being manipulated I don't agree with you you said to me when I tried to express me it's made it absolutely not okay for me to express them well that's why I think we need to come up there all the time all the time when we communicate you act like I'm manipulating you and we're just talking you should have told me that when Justin and I'm not trying to characterize you in any kind of way I have to say that I love you and I want us to get help so we could be happy to go with that choice of the counselors so that you can get me to believe that the said it was my fault for not communicating well it up a matter of us in the past like it did not matter because you still do it you still playing everything on me I've done stuff like you were thinking about them nothing wrong with pad could hear you say that you've done nothing wrong that was his first issue that you're pathological well it's not my fault Dustin it's not my fault that I've actually acted with Integrity towards you you don't use that again. And you said you're constantly blame shifting all the bad things that you do to me when you get called out you twist them around to be my fault it's on agree with that not okay told you that I was working too much agree with you that I was working too much you just explain how I was on the same team and making those decisions for you to work too much well that's we were married and he made decisions together you're the one that found that project to need to get involved in that's awful wage you were supposed to hire one general contractor for Pine Ridge and you know it in general contractor you and then you were there Non-Stop and in the end there that's not my fault that's it shouldn't it shouldn't have been your fault I know but it shouldn't have been up to me to be like raising my kids alone just because your contractor was faulty like the answer to that is the answer to that is to sell the house without a paint job being very good that's the answer that's what somebody who kept I don't know I agree that that's the answer but I I agree with you that I work too much I. When you need to be with your family like that's that's cheating on your family it's it's it's harmful but I wasn't allowed to say that without me being shamed for not understanding like wage I don't know how to tell you that you don't understand you could say things and I can have a different opinion we could talk about them and that's not a beaut it is when I'm not allowed to say what my needs are you are allowed to say what your needs are I want you to have your needs fulfilled because I care about you this is that's not true that's not true you've never done that it's if that was what mattered do you do you think on this phone call on file the taxes tonight it happens done by today if possible like that's the response that you've given for everything that you have chosen over your family ever it's not possible for you to not go over to Pine Ridge it's not possible for you to just bring it when it's not perfect it's not possible that's not possible that's not possible that's not possible so here I am the stupid one who doesn't understand taxes and so what I what am I supposed to do stop having the need yes that's all I can do is stop having a need I have to stop the attacks and you know that you have set up a page that doesn't stop treating me that way you know that this is all you being in a position of having all the power in our relationship and me having done you know that yep our financing understand what you think I could do is because you have all the documents from 2018 and you know it and you might have had a business that year I don't seem right but I'm saying I have no way of knowing I don't know if you had an LLC I don't know if you have 1099 I don't know any of that everything is unnecessarily complicated in a way that could have it ever filed a document so you have no concept of how long it takes to do taxes are complicated is that what you were just working I know but if you were just working a normal job and all you had was twenty-four paychecks then I would have no problem filing taxes with your home or pay checks and our rental income from three properties I could do that you know this is a situation that you have created from your decisions that put you in the position in the only one who can actually file the taxes and you know that you are unnecessarily taking a lot of time to do them that takes time away from you being able to do anything that's actually productive in life I wish they could go faster I don't know how to do them faster I don't that's not any different than anything that you've ever spent time on but other than taking care of your family so don't tell me that all after loser this year than I have in the past but don't tell me that all I have to say I know but don't tell me that all I ever had to do was I need to have better communication skills to express my needs to you because you would have taken care of them if if I was a good communicator didn't say that's all you need to do there's nothing I needed to do. It's not my fault that you neglected me it's not because I didn't communicate well enough with you it's it's not because I was the one who was making the decision about you doing what you did at Pine Ridge or anywhere else none of that's on me and you want me to take half of them for your behavior I'm not asking you to take half the ownership for what I was doing with the kids while you weren't here which I'm taking ownership for the parenting decisions that I made Em I'm taking ownership for the domestic management decisions that I made taking ownership for the fact that I should have been there more for you I said I understand that you're saying to have thought you said you said that that we made those decisions as a team what we did so that's not okay that's not okay that you're getting used the fact that I am your steadfast staunch supporter following you and loving you no matter how bad your decisions are and then turn that around on me and say that I own fifty percent of the blame for what you did that same you own the blame for things that I did those decisions of the team that's what you want me to believe that I just as responsible for all that time you spent at 5 and no that's not okay that's not okay just because I'm amazingly supportive in the space of severe neglect just because I take up the slack for you because I love you and I want you to be happy and you claim you can't be happy working a job for a pay check like a normal person just because of Portugal what doesn't mean that I own fifty percent of the blame for how you chose to spend your time that's not okay I didn't do anything wrong and it's not pathological for me to recognize that I don't agree with you but I do agree with you that I should not have been working as much as I was and I'm sorry, that's not the problem Dustin the problem is to blame shifting the problem is the rhetoric the rhetorical tactics that you utilized throughout the entire process that kept me down and kept me from being able to speak freely about how your behaviors were affecting me well and and the fact that you don't see that and I would love to the not a safe person for me you're not even close but I'm not looking to reconcile with you I have no interest in working on reconciliation with you I would be interested in reconciling with a man who has repented and gone through an extensive Rehabilitation process and that's not you obviously and I'm not going to be able to if you're not going to do anything or PG that's not true that's blame-shifting it's not my responsibility to subject myself to get him again I'm not trying to subject you to anything other than I am with you and I'm saying no victim or the abuser you need extensive Rehabilitation without me right I know and if you're wanting to get somebody in a room to help your therapist see it you just can't see it that it needs to be Arabelle not me I think that would be highly inappropriate I think putting me in a room with you in a therapist would be highly inappropriate because you know that on your target victim and give them the other advice gotten the best advice that I know how to get off doing the best that I know how to do and I wish to do a better way that's why that's true that's true I you know it's not it's not you've made up all these lies about Aaron and it's only on the end you have made up any lines of that Aaron you have no I haven't yes you have fiance that he made generalizations with you and we can give you examples at the lie like you waited until after he had you waited until months after he had pointed out really specific things in real time as happening it didn't absolutely literally right there and you refused to explain himself did it in our meetings no he didn't I mean when something's like already been pointed out to you in real time later it never ever in ten minutes later I'm not lying it's not explaining that they are a liar it's not the Next Generation that something is not sure it's true nobody did not an explanation of that nobody did that thought he did that nobody did that but I can see how that would be if you were to go to Honey like it's helped somebody that happens I can definitely see how they would they would be I wouldn't be that there were two people there and it wasn't happening or it was and they could say that's definitely happening or that's definitely not happening it was definitely happening I was there that's why you have your counseling with a counselor know the counselor Justin the counselor would have seen the same stuff that Aaron's off that would be great and then we could have something you want to come you want to clean slate because you've learned from your experience you learned that what you were doing number characterized pathology without any details or Fastback himself and then yep that's a lie to say that to Ted Hill believe that stinks about Aaron so that's an extraordinarily effective lie and I'm glad that you started I have no reason to discuss with counselor if we're getting counseling from accounts Larry yeah but what I'm saying is if we had been with a different counselor that different counselor would have come to the same conclusions like think about what you were doing in July Dustin stop and go back to that moment and what you were doing okay think about what we had we had a debate about my relationship with Julie and I I we didn't have any problems ever since that was not a debate obviously thought it was you know it was not as bad we were not debating it it wasn't me trying to convince you it was inappropriate and you trying to convince me it was appropriate that's not what happened. Did that ton and two new and you were fighting me off the same thing simultaneously and you were trying to Gaslight it that you were aware while you were doing it and that's what you were trying to do with like that's what that is oh that's what was happening and if you want to characterize his head that I was trying to call you out on your own emotional or denying it that's not what happened wage that's not the store that's not truthful it's not that you didn't see it and that whether you're talking about but that's not what was really happening what was what was really happening was you do the whole time and it was obvious that you knew the whole time and you were just going through a whole Litany of bizarre rhetorical tactics that were extraordinarily psychologically confusing to everybody who came into contact with you I mean if you had a licensed mental health professional wage of you during July and August and September they would have seen those things but you know that you're not going to do those things anymore you know that if we got in front of a line licensed mental health counselor right now you suck revert to how you were in July you wouldn't revert to how you were in August you wouldn't revert to how you were in September you wouldn't take those arguments that you now know absolutely will not use them that I viewed you constantly you're saying I might be using you in this phone call so I'm saying that you need is a difference of that make the customer is saying that Julie doesn't even matter in the context of this whole thing anyway so it's really doesn't matter what what package it was pathological that's not a normal that way anymore than what's the problem I'm saying what you're wanting to do is take the fact that somebody actually got home see your true colors and you want a do-over you want to clean slate you want to eliminate person who's got to see it first-hand and you want to get in front of somebody who's never seen that side of you and you want to get in front of somebody who can only hear you with the most honorable possible explanation for your behavior Julie explanation for me having an emotional affair oh absolutely you've crafted that The Honorable thing yeah and in our anniversary package apologize works really hard I don't know you worked really really use I know so now you've got it down now you finally figured out what the appropriate way for you to be able to look as good as possible when people found out you were cheating on your wife and now that you know you want to get to start slash but he never have to see pathological Dustin and you want to start off with someone who only gets to see from the very get-go how amazing and how graceful he is his wife and and even though he's not capable or trained in recognizing if there's a pathology presence he didn't he didn't just said he did you just said Terrence Terrence already seen passage he knows what's going on is but that doesn't mean he said it was a pathology he simply saw abuse and it doesn't mean that he called it to you characterize it or describe it so the problem for me to be able to work on it it's a problem that I wouldn't have if we were in a professional therapist because that somebody who you need to reconcile with and that's somebody who has seen that you do you do you're telling me I do but my therapist are telling me I should be involved with that church so because you lied you know I did that it is like a college eyes you that's a lie he didn't he didn't if he did and he's very this up in my wife which is ending my marriage life you are a liar that's true it's true he didn't do that you're a liar it's true you can make up lies that would make ten say you need to stay away from that church but you know what I'm doing make up lies if you told me that your pastor I apologize you I would tell you to stay away from that church but I'm not telling you to stay away from that church because I was actually there and it's not sure why you just literally like within five minutes of this you were just saying that he saw the pathologist that's why the latest he saw the behavior you're acting Capital logically it's not somebody's fault for Fitness thing it that doesn't mean that they're trying to make an amateur diagnosis should be able to care about the same as as abusive or to call it abusive or characterize it says, spouses of you so they should be able to care what if you didn't characterize it to me as abusive home like I don't know how to help you I don't know how to help you you want to make up the that I'm somehow getting this stuff from your pastor because I'm your target victim and you want to eliminate him from the equation I haven't tried to eliminate him from the equation I haven't tried to separate you to the SL and have it I'm telling you that based on our situation my professional therapist says that I shouldn't be involved in this obviously the Merida mean it's a situation situation as you pass it could have been it could have been it could have been explored a little bit better with your participation that's true you do you see that this is Blaine shifting. So it's going to be a music on your perspective I did about you and I reached out to the service you use that as evidence that there was something wrong with me and you know that God yes you are encouraged. Participation I encourage them to speak with you I could not have been a better advocate for getting involved nobody used anything against you that's not true my characterization of you has always been that I was brainwashed by Aaron that that my pastor told me that my package don't see that you have psychological problems no so Ted would deny that said was denied that after had any bearing in me thinking the way I think about your own opinions but I didn't say that okay are you admitting that it never happened but what never happened that I wasn't told by our pastor that you have psychological problems or you admitting that that's true that I was never told that by our pastor off I was there when you guys talked about it and you're evidently talking were talking while I was in presence but have no you were talking to the president that's there's nothing wrong and you're making up that you can see all the stuff he didn't tell me I mean it's also Dustin it's awful on your end for you to be asking you to believe the things that you're asking me to believe it's awful
speaker 2: she
speaker 1: didn't say that you have psychological problems in front of me I didn't happen it was awful very reason that significant that I don't understand anyway like I I mean it's psychological abuse so yeah that's pretty awful it's gaslighting so yeah that's a lot of how because I was I was there for those meetings and you want me to you want me to just throw away my actual experience in which he pointed you to Jesus consistently you want you to throw everybody off point me to do this consistently like consistently I never said he didn't instantly I know I know so when we start to talk about like is this like a psychological could and he says that what's really needed is Jesus like it's wrong for you to try to convince me that the conversation went do you think there's something psychologically wrong with Dustin maybe there's something psychological wage going on with Dustin like it's wrong for you to ask me to accept that that happened when I was there and I know what actually happened. That is psychological abuse that is gas-lighting and that's a pretty big deal it's a big deal so you need to I don't know how to help you out there I don't know the full weight of how abuse is that is the full States how abusive that is for you to want me to go along with a with a story with you rewriting history for Aaron to have said you have psychological problems like you need to not blame shift on that you need to not downplay that you need to own the full weight of that entire content of all of our discussions with them know. nope that's wrong that's wrong for you to rewrite history that way it did not history you're asking you're asking me to accept this fact and every time it was two hours three hours but all of you guys characterizing me as lying or manipulating or dead yeah but all that those sessions with with any you're a liar liar he would specifically say between now and next week I'd like you to figure out ways that you could try to get off of work by 4:30 it was very concrete we would have specific conversations where we described me and it's not up to your workplace going to your workplace and you're not being willing to answer the phone because you're on the phone with Julie for 20 minutes specific conversations with them you're working I know but you wouldn't flip over to find out why I was calling you 20 times in a row like there was actually there was actual substance for the conversations with my point destined I was there I remember I remember lots of money substance and you want to pretend that we were sitting there with people going dust and you're just a manipulator just at well I'm not going to give you an example but is there a U-turn people for example you lie you lie a lot and all of these untruths are just I find it very manipulative and you need to stop that like that's not what happened we were having really specific conversation happy about actual nope like no no I was there and for you to want me to reject the hours of an actual content focused conversations that I experience and that I remember with my memory that is good and you want me to just replace that with a completely alternate set of events that I didn't experience because they didn't happen and this also had set of events that I'm required to accept this truth despite knowing for certain that they're not truth because I was there involves people with the same generalizations about you and pathologizing you and like I can't do that because it didn't happen it is not fair for you to ask me to throw away the reality of what I actually experienced and I remember because it actually happened and replaced that with your story good afternoon. Okay that's not exactly asking you to throw away your reality but I was all set. And I actually happened wage of perception that I have I remember the words that were connected perception is that any time I was accused of buying it made sense and with the concrete examples of untruths and it wasn't long will there may be times that you didn't understand but that's not the same as as claiming that we weren't even talking about any specific would be great and if we were in front of a real counselor or if she recording our meeting so that it could be reviewed yeah but you understand that if we had had a real counselor the same thing would have happened that's a great thing about a counselor is that you're the great thing about a counselor is what then when they see through you you can just find a reason to not go to that counselor anymore because I thought it will prove your real life that's just a person you go to one hour a week and pay in a clinical setting you can escape from that if it's not going the way you want it to go and the problem with Aaron is you can't escape it because he's part of real life you can't and numerate his concerns that age not trying to escape a counselor that's not true subjected myself to substantial counseling and some of the month the person who you need to go and numerate things with you is Erin Bell not me because I'm the person you're trying to cast for that and I do not agree with you I don't want to Gaslight you I want you to be happy to believe differently than they did stop gaslighting that's how the K and your intent and doing that is getting me to believe that things happened differently than they actually happened I don't want you to believe things happen differently but actually have like that to be on the same page so that would be the unit 8 and get along that's what I want I don't need to get along with Erin Bell
speaker 2: he
speaker 1: doesn't even remotely know me as well as you yeah that's what you need to do no I don't you do it's not up for discussion you can make up lies about them and try to get me to question them remembering this wrong did Aaron actually say doesn't matter we have to talk about that number again I know but but the real thing actually because I'm actually holding out a requirement that you will never ever ever sleep at the same address with me as long as we live ever if you haven't reconciled with Aaron Bell because there's evidence that you're not that I can kiss my ass I have a doubt about that about him that would be awesome. Be a great start if you would stop telling you know you are saying that he told me you have psychological problems so that's why in our meetings so so you're still a liar you're still wanting to lie to me about him I don't I don't think so that's this is why we need therapy your your opinion is that anything that can be it's not an opinion as fact and anybody that has a different opinion from you is a liar but it's not on the thing is nothing these are not opinions you want to convince me that things that actually happen are just my perception because that's necessary out for you to be able to change what I believe actually happened it's necessary for you to get me thinking that these things are just my perception and there's no objective reality thing as a profession a that's what that's necessary for you to get me to believe that in order for you to be back in power and control of deciding what I believe actually occurred what power control am I seeking like I have no control over to you know you're seeking to isolate whether you're abusing me and whether the way you're treating me is okay to being just between you and I that's not true I wanted to see what the calculator exactly who you can fire it will like this is not a person who would actually be able to hold you accountable is not a person trying to find jobs and you can hold me accountable I believe in divorce me and take away from the accountability if you're not going to have a real accountability where they're giving you everything that's not true that's part of the cycle where you try to get sleeping back under my roof but you're trying to get back sleeping under my roof with out any protections for me. And a hired clinical person that we see an hour a week is not protection for me and that's not accountability for you well I packed terapistas in production for anybody nope no therapist is protection for anybody Dustin exactly so what are you talking about are you calling your pastor a therapist oh he's calling himself a therapist offering. He didn't offer you therapy he was offering you accountability that was accountability happening there Dustin Saturday it was not happy that's what it could have been in therapy he was holding me up with accountability the price that I'm appropriate have been extremely damaging and I'm living the manifestations of that right now in this conversation today is your wife leaving you it's the manifestation of your sorrow for losing what is dear to you God gives you depression so that you know that the situation you're in is not okay with you so that you'll make the necessary changes to restore your family to what it needs to be but that's because of something I did I'm the one who filed for divorce I'm the one who's not willing to live with you anymore you're not living with manifestations of errands inappropriate handling of it true and living with me I don't agree with you going to agree with you said you wanted your living room and the fact that your wife left you that's true but it's got nothing to do I know but you want to blame area that your wife left you instead of looking in the mirror and looking at who costs your wife to leave you you're not owning the facts are in for my way from blame him for echoing back with you this idea that there's some I don't know he didn't it is he didn't he didn't it's crazy for us to keep arguing about this this is. I'm sorry argued with you anymore all right do you want to pursue learning how you've abused me and reconciling with Aaron Bell and learning how to be accountable to other people for the way you treat me I don't understand what you think this entire conversation or it past six months of activity and dedication to that has been if you think that I'm not doing it but it off cuz you're on the phone telling me that you're already reconciled to Arabella while you're telling me lies about him that are designed to make sure here in Belleville as what is been advisable bye-bye bearable but you you're not recognizing actually well well beyond that I know you're not recognizing that your therapist gave you that advice based on bad information that I asked them I gave them a good information as I can and you tell them that he can just your life you have psychological problems so it's why it's complete fabrication there's zero through to it whatsoever and you can't trust anything that said tells you about your relationship with Aaron except I understand that okay so you didn't tell Ted that your pastor and wife working that you had psychological problems I did tell him that exactly so that means that therefore cannot trust anything that said tells you because what that tells you is going to be based on the assumption that that's what you believe regardless of whether it's reality or not Ted have no way of knowing that a cat has no way of knowing if that actually happens I know for sure it didn't happen often and something so he's got to give you advice on the basis of what is what is going to work for Dustin when Dustin has this unshakable belief that his Pastor convinced that's why I said there's something wrong with him psychologically I did not say that what do you mean your statement is false I did not say that say what make a statement that you said something and say that I didn't say that are in Belle you said that I told the page that are invalid convince my wife and I have psychological problems they've that just had believed that how do I know why do you ask me questions like that I don't know cuz he believes thing about this situation based on what you told him to see what he believes things about our situation based on information you gave him and you've been saying a lot of things to me that the perception of it and there were there were dozens upon dozens upon dozens of objects like complete lies and distortions and poor riffic who riffic awful things about me in the letter that your mom wrote to Nathan and your response to that at that time was this is actually mostly true okay well he did not receive you need to think about the letter and you need to think about how Disturbed in the head anybody would have to be to say this is mostly true like whatever a lot of elements of the letter that we're true area really know I think I don't think that I don't think that a sane person who who experienced like what we've been through would be able to read that letter and say this is mostly true like you can read that letter and you can or you can read that letter and you can say wow this is wage touch with reality or you can read that letter and say that lady is conniving and crazy or just want that letter and say wow she's out some additional a month right but you can't read that letter mostly true that's if that over half of it was true and probably ever if you were in a place where you create that and say this is mostly true life then nothing that you said within three weeks of that three weeks before or three weeks after it would be reasonable for somebody to actually listen to and make an evaluation based on what you were saying there's no way I think that's a great example of why we need to be with a professional therapist cuz I do not agree with your statement I don't agree with your characterization of the letter don't know what you're saying but that's what I'm asking you to take ownership of your actions because of the fact that I haven't done anything wrong and I don't deserve to be blamed for the horrific Behavior something that you have subjected me to and you are consistently trying to twist it around and go to your account. you're not you're wanting to blame me for not going to a counselor with you when I've done everything within my professionals and I think you guys have the counselor wage and you want to blame my counselor for being unprofessional since you've already met with me but you scheduled anything many different professional parties but they don't know you're an abuser dust it can you just stay on the phone right never mind what I told them that you were alleging that I was manipulative and deceiving you and bought a controlling you which I think are well-recognized terms of abuse and I told them to concentrate and finding those patterns and myself and they said we spot those patterns pretty easily and we do not see them in you and they did it with a lot of confidence I just I don't know what else to say about it maybe I don't know how accurate it is I don't know I just done the best I can I want you to be happy you are not happy with me yeah I mean I'm giving you a way to do that God only specific about what needs to happen in order for me to be happy and no I'm never going to agree with you because I'm not you I know but if you if it was about like something opinion-based like whether it is useful in interpersonal conflict to use labels such as abuse like we could have a difference of opinion about that there could be a legitimate opinion where you say no that's such a loaded word I think that it turns people off and makes it harder for them to look at the actual Behavior just because you're putting a label on it and I say no I disagree the label is very useful because it helped put you know a nest like a necessary in a negative you know lied on something that needs to be viewed in a very negative light and that's helpful and failing the full of gravity of what is implied by these patterns of like that would suck pinion but you're asking me to accept as fact things that didn't actually happen that are not subjective and not related to perception and not related to opinions you're actually having to rewrite history that's psychological abuse now you could say something like I felt very judged when I was sitting in the room with you and Erin and Allison and I can't argue with that because that's your feeling and you can explore with your individual therapist why you have those feelings but that's what the people in the room actually said what feelings are inconsequential I'm talking about what actually happens and that's what I'm saying like you can't do that that's not okay you need to stop I can't I get it no I'm not changing what actually happens I'm just actually aware of what actually happened and it's not pathological for me to be confident in my memory and you know as well as I do the actual truth which is that it doesn't matter if you have a personality disorder what matters is that what you did was wrong and it needs to change and and I don't mean having an affair I mean your entire way of communicating with me that involves being defensive and involves resenting me that involves telling me that I don't like you when I'm know that that's not the case that involves leaving me for things that involves minimizing your behavior denying your behavior blaming your behavior on me off that entire thing is is a way of interfacing with me does not really all that straightforward and honest and I get that when you were talking to Ted you weren't you weren't exhibiting any of those behaviors but that was your choice that was your choice to be a polar opposite Dustin in the room with the reality are in the easy you've just explained how our entire lives all I am is abusive towards you everything that I do is terrible you need to see if they if it's too I do why is that hard for you to understand that's the only way we're going to get to the bottom of the page it's to what you're actually saying is Erin you need to question your own reality your perception is there something that you like to be inexplicable you don't want to accept Grace that's why you're not actually actually leaning into the love of Jesus and the actual implications that that has to completely change your souls it's not true I'm not talking about Grace I'm talking about you liking me someone who is bathing in the grace of Jesus Christ every morning every afternoon in every night would not struggle with that concept well I don't agree with you I I think that you loved me and it's completely illogical to say that you like me you just enumerated every aspect of our life and your perception that it was a pieces yeah but that's on the basis of how you've treated me you do not like me that's not an immutable characteristic of you Dustin it doesn't mean that you like me it does I mean I do like you I'm saying that that is an independent reality like its independence the actions that you take toward me are going to govern the level of a relationship that I'm able to safely have with you I have a reservation of you is what causes me to desire the closest relationship that I can possibly get and my my aspiration of you is what causes me to steadfastly admiration for me is what causes me to look to be with you it's what causes me from having it marriage causes you to want to be with me you know our covenant marriage is a decision that I make I know that's what I'm saying biking with no my liking you is is this strong attraction that I have to you that I think about you in a sexual way that I admire you that I would prefer to spend time with you over spending time with your other man on the face of the planet Earth yes that's the same with me I do my cousin is that I'm going to prioritize what is in your best interests over anything that I personally would work for my best interest and in my prioritization of you I can see that giving you complete access to me even when you're behaving in an abusive manner is not at your best interest that that's toxic to you that at least you in a downward spiral of becoming more and more selfish and God doesn't desire for me to invite you to become more and more selfish so I can desire to want to be with you in a no-holds-barred no limits no boundaries kind of way and over time I can recognize that that's not in your best interest and I can make that sacrifice but I still like you and I still want to be with you I still admire you I still choose you I still want you and it's still move more than anything for you your behavior to change in a way that state for me I wouldn't do anything any of that on the basis of a covenant marriage there's there's really not a covenant like there's not you're completely trampling that I don't agree with that that's true what it's true it's it's true you're not you're not doing your wedding vows okay and I don't know how to do them better than I'm doing I you could make a decision that you're not going to kill yourself if we end up divorced it would have to do with anything cuz that's not that's not being faithful to your commitment so we're not so many divorced and what how how are you loving and honoring me when you're not even here I don't the relevant y cuz we wouldn't be married probably want to talk about that I don't really want to talk about that anymore okay hello I don't and I would like for you at some point to come to come to a place where you're willing to make that commitment to me does not desire request it's not it's not it's not the darkness issue it's bizarre not to any any man on the face of this planet should be able to make that came into his wife if you divorce and I have any my wife divorcing me I disagree I disagree you know that it's emotional blackmail off to say that you're going to I don't want to I'm not telling you that and then tell you that the one that you're the one that I'm trying to back me into a corner I'm not no I'm saying it's reasonable for me to make that request off okay well your answer call me back are for maybe two reasonable completely remember what ever going to commit to not killing myself under any conditions well that's wrong Dustin that's it that's in you need to take that to Jesus and you need to confess it for what it is it's in I don't agree with that it's NY because you made in the image of God so I'm not God it's not okay I know it's not okay for you to kill another person it's not okay for you to kill any person that's murder and murder the reason that murder is wrong is because it doesn't rightly honor and Revere the human as an image bearer of God it doesn't respect the fact that God creates people for the purpose of bringing him glory not interested in it doesn't I'm just saying it doesn't it doesn't rightly relate a human the guide that that life is sacred and that life is valuable and that life is intended to glorify God and that his creation is a wonderful thing and that his gift of life is something to be valued that's why murder is wrong and that is a form of murder and it's thin and it's time for you to clean to it and it's the same for you to not be willing to make a commitment not to do it I don't agree with you and I really don't want to talk about it I'm not bizarre for making that request you shouldn't characterize me that ways okay I'm sorry completely reasonable on my end I have three children with you and I deserve the safety of knowing that I ever need to use the cords to protect us then my children will not be adversely affected in that way I'm agree with you I don't that's that's a completely reasonable expectation I have children with you I don't want to talk about this and I don't agree with you it's just leave it at that I don't think that I have some obligation to be on this planet for an indeterminate amount of time because you impregnated me I don't agree with you I don't think intercourse you put sperm in me there are now children it's an obligation I don't agree with you doesn't work than me no it's not yeah I deserve to have the option of divorce to protect us have the option I know the option and that shouldn't come with oh and when you do that your kids are going to have a cat who took themselves for the rest of their life that that's not an okay that's not an okay result of me using courts to protect us from you if I need to divorce you that's not okay how long for it to come with that high of a price tag to your children that's not okay, okay thank you for sharing your opinion with me I don't want your decision to be based on that either I think so ridiculous but you understand that know you understand that I'm a mother of three children and I should never make any decision without taking into account the full extent of all the ramifications that we'll have on them that's not going to make our decisions together so I can't promise I'm going to do everything that you want me to do no but make decisions that are the best interests of your children not yourself we don't agree about what's that's but you can't just decide whatever you want is what's best for your children you have to think about the actual cause and effect that they actually experience cuz they only have one dad so anyway what I was getting at is if you want to go through the actual process of learning about your abusive Behavior and admitting that Aaron didn't do anything wrong in counseling you and that he somebody that you can trust for Council and that you're willing to have that kind of real accountability then maybe after you go through that online coaching program you do and I can work toward eventually being able to do a couples counseling but if you're absolutely certain that even going through an online coaching program you would not come out the other end being willing to have the beliefs that I need you to have then we should save our time and we should save our money let me should go ahead and divorce I don't know what the value with that they do the on the answer's yes yeah but I'm saying like if you already know that you're going to come out the other end of the program definitely nothing know that huh cuz you cuz if you're in you said it several times and this conversation that you're never going to give up your lie that Aaron convince me that you should have a psychological problem like if that's just give up my life and makes zero sense I did not say that characterizing it as a lie because I am actually happen but yeah we have on this recording we have you stating that you were never going to change that I'm out of that so I don't know if they have a magic program that changes your memory I will do it I'll see you trying everything I know can can do to make this work what's your best understanding of what personality disorder is
speaker 2: I don't know I
speaker 1: looked it up I do not remember what's your I don't know perception of what that means to say someone has a personality disorder I don't remember I looked it up I don't remember do you want me to look it up right now I'm just wondering what your your perception is I don't know I don't remember so something you identify with having a personality disorder no I know that we got the info in the doctor crop report it didn't give you any sense of like that's me or I don't know I mean okay so I went to see a psychologist at I'm still going to say repeat yeah but I'm saying like do you feel any sense of identifying in that way because my have like they have relationship problems which we clearly have your understanding what I'm not sure it might have been something of a pallet seems like you're you were going to a lot of jumping through a lot of these hoops like to prove that you didn't I'd like to prove that I do or don't kinds of problems and I was just wondering if you were identifying with so you're identifying to the extent that you have relations ship problems I think you said something about getting caught up in your work which we have already talked about I mean do you feel like you identify with that yeah I told you on this call that I was working too much so maybe it's true I don't know if I'm going to a therapist not not trying to get help not do you feel the way you do therapist feels as though about not not labeling it and off it's not necessarily useful I think he thinks just like we do is not that it's not useful it's that Psychiatry cruise on a spectrum and so finding something in some defined box may or may not be helpful helpful for understanding do it maybe you just saying for your therapeutic approach you need the home address the person what makes them functional I think my understanding is that and having a personality disorder you don't see a problem with your problem behaviors necessarily if I want us to see it at their best I mean yeah but that's not what a ferret is on my own and ask them to tell me if I have any issues right but like do you see do you see any discrepancy between what your psychological report said and what your therapist said oh yeah they're running late they're not saying that I had a possibility of a personality disorder but they also didn't run the month yeah so I think I mean I feel like that reveals some limitation in what a therapist is able to detect based on just clinical interview like I honestly honey I don't know I'm just trying to throw as much as as I can add an egg and didn't say anything yes guess they want you to figure it all out with your new therapist and probably so a majority of mental health problems and all I think all of the mental health problems that how do you like actually advertises that they specialize in Just Cause distress to the patient you know what I mean so like all of a sudden there's a list of things that how do you make trades like PTSD the depression anxiety you know what I mean like all those things those are things that distress the person suffering from them so that if someone asks you about it like you would just like be able to talk about how it was causing a problem for you or is upsetting to you you know what I mean well you've had that cuz you have some of these things right so it's easy to verbalize how they negatively affect your life cuz you're not they're not welcome but all of the problems that are associated with a personality disorder are perceived by the sufferer as being positive things off it's not something that you would complain about or say is a problem in your life because you don't see it as a problem you see it as a good thing so in a clinical interview those are not the things that you're going to bring up as being problematic you know what I mean I do but I think that your read on Honey Lake is off and that I can tell you some of my friends got diagnosed with personality disorders and they did not go in any way of thinking that they had issues but was it narcissism and borderline it was not nice this is MM it might have been borderline I don't know so there you go you understand do you understand that Megan told me on the phone the most important thing for you was for you to be working wage instead the last thing she said the last thing she you want is for a person with depression to be you know stuck at home all day I can promise you she was worried about that but have you ever stayed at home all day I mean when she stay home all day first week what I was back here know you came over to my house wage huh I guess that was counting that let's not stand at home all day I think it would have been better for me to be at home no I'm saying I'm saying in a box office people with depression who have a tendency to not want to get out of bed and be productive I know but because you are depressive she's putting you in a very wrong box she's making assumptions about you based on your depression that you would have a propensity taxes I went to bed because I was suicidal yeah but that's not the same as somebody who doesn't get up and go to work she's thinking about people who have a tendency to not be productive like to not go to work you want to pay I don't I don't but like I said to her oh that's not going to be that's not a problem for Dustin he I was like no he has severe workaholism he's just like oh that's good that's so much you know I'd wait way rather have somebody be working too much but have to back off of it then just be at home all day because it's so hard to get over the hump of like getting started shooting anything but it's just for that direction like she had no concept that you have actual workaholism like she does she has no concept of having and we talked about workaholism if she doesn't she tell her heroin addicts oh good I'm glad that you're motivated to shoot up in the morning that's way better than not wanting to do anything or put anything into your body I'd rather you be shooting up so we can just back off the dosage over time then to be like she wouldn't do that you don't you don't take somebody's drug of choice wage act like it's a good thing she was clearly clearly not having that on the radar as being a major major problem in your life and its major contribution to Major difficulties that you've had for a very long time across a wide variety of contexts that put you in the position of having of having the low self-esteem that made you have the relationship that you had with Julie in the first place yeah but she clearly didn't get it she clearly and that's the problem like that's the problem with with something like workaholism like we live in a society that glorifies being productive it is some it's I mean what what other symptom of any of the personality disorders could you view as virtuous you know what I'm saying like it sounds virtuous it sounds like you're a hard worker that's a good thing oh he's a hard worker so is wife was just hurt because she felt neglected cuz he's such a hard worker that's really missing it in a big way I'm not sure that it is I mean it's this is in a big way Dustin my feelings haven't been hurt by that I'm not saying your feelings are hurt but you've actually done extreme damage to cells that's what caused you to lose so much money on your flips that's what caused you to miss out on your own children's childhood what cause you to not have any Recreation time these are major major problems