speaker 1: 
speaker 2: this call may be recorded press one to accept hi hi Mommy you doing better today little bit okay I'm sorry about last night what about it I just made it a you said that you were having a stressful time and I ended up adding to it and that hadn't been my intention off okay I don't remember sorry you were saying it then just real stressful with your mom and I ended up like talking about your mom and how you should have responded when I told you about my conversation you know silly I didn't have to do that at that time okay so you coming up with a plan not really know what's what's Ted telling you to do what do you mean and he says they have resources here to help me find a house if I don't have anywhere to live only a prescriptive signal that he sold me sucks applicable to you no I think we're going to have my mom in our house does that feel wise to you yes all right well those those rent for significantly more than apartments that are very very close to your work sites so you're going to be spending a lot of gas money out of our joint resources unnecessarily and those expenses are going to cause you to continue to have additional credit card debt servicing obligations just many thousands of dollars to debt servicing that will not go towards providing for your children in the future so I think I think that you're smart enough and experienced enough to connect the dots and understand that your mother is putting me in it and expect ordinarily vulnerable position and is going to have way more power and control over me than you will and that that is by Design in that there are only 1 million unpredictable ways that she will then have financial leverage to make me look bad or forced me to give you what she wants me to give you or forced me to go live where she wants me to have to go live I can't I can't do this I'm just telling you that if that's what you're pursuing but then you are as I can talk to you again do this I just I just feel like you deserve to understand what you're choosing with your whole life before I choose it because she's making it really appealing and she's got you right where she wants you and if you do it because you feel like you have no choice then you've you've not really made the choice yourself you just let her choose that there's no way that you're going to put me in a position okay do you understand though that you have options nope you have options you have an options that would not further harm your family you have options that could end could end the cycle of addiction to power and control you can tell your mother that you will not accept her money and it's not okay for her to dictate to you where you're going to live and make sure that she forces you to with her money to live in a place that's going to harm your family life you can tell her that you'll accept the money if it goes to a plate and like an apartment that she's willing to cosign on you have that option and if you're not comfortable saying those words to her and that's a sure sign right there that there is inequity in the Power Balance between you and your mom and you shouldn't be getting in bed with her at all did I upset you hey Dustin but do you think that I'm trying to do something bad to you I don't know you know I don't desire for you to be without housing you know I won't stop you from coming to live here at Stanley Drive and you know there's a lot of emotionally healthy people who really really love you for you and not for you being an extension of them and those are people that you like could call on at a time like this to help you find a good living situation
speaker 1: right hey
speaker 2: Dost what do you think I'm different than I used to be I don't know I don't think that's true I think you know I am okay I think you know that like there's a difference in the Power Balance between you and I now that when you try to twist things around on me by blaming me or denying or you know deflecting or changing the subject that it's not ever going to work again now that I see through it and if you feel like
speaker 1: a
speaker 2: relationship with a woman who's going to call you out on those behaviors every time is a relationship that you don't want any part in it would be healthy to say so like sounds like you went away you still there
speaker 1: I'm
speaker 2: here seems here too though and I've never said that I don't want to be with you if you just want me to say that see if any excuse the lead me say that again I never said that I don't want to be with you you just want me to say that you can leave me that's not at all what I'm completely in agreement that you've never said that you don't want me dead I'm completely in agreement the difficulty is that you're actually completely in inescapable bondage too deeply ingrained habitual Behavior patterns of saying whatever you have to say and doing whatever you have to do to maintain control in a relationship and there's been a lot of very specific tactics that I've been able to point out to you that you just do like without even thinking even in the last 3 days there's been a lot of specific tactics that have been able to point out to you so I think that when you say that you want to be with me I think what you're saying is that you want to be with the me that you've always experienced in the past the one who who knows walks on eggshells to avoid both of those tactics or the one who changes her behavior you know to avoid being exposed to some of those tactics or the one who apologizes whenever she gets blamed for something that's really your fault or the one who feels bad about herself because she's obviously a nagging wife and a dripping faucet and you'd be better off to live on a rooftop than with her you know the who's who takes those things on herself when really you're just actually doing selfish destructive things to your family I think you want the wife who cries because she is completely powerless and I'm not that person now and I'm never going to be that person again and you can't at this point pretend that you don't have those deeply ingrained habitual Behavior patterns of trying to maintain control that's that's something that you have so that being the case it's not really compatible with a wife who doesn't give in to those tactics so you might not work there and why are you doing this to me I filed for divorce not doing anything to you I'm just taking the time to help you understand you you need to know that I love you completely and you need to go home that you can have mutually loving mutually sacrificial mutually trustworthy relationships in this world but we're at a point where you need to decide if you weren't to give up the power and control everything that's not true that's not true you just you just said that as a tactic you just said that to make me feel bad but it's not actually true and sing the actual sorry but I got to go I know I'm paying that that given the situation it's not good enough for you and I don't know how to give you any more about wanting you to give me more I'm talking about it is right now a given that you have this problem and you need to decide which way you're wanting to do with it I don't know what you're talking about and that's not true you said you wanted a divorce I said I would give you literally everything I know it up saying like is that I just need to understand that that's what you're pursuing your pursuing divorce in which you say Space by wage war and I told you that you can have whatever you want but and literally done a lot of things but just so you've got everything you've done everything you're you're abusive you're abusive or manipulative you're abusive you have a very very very real problem and so if you're saying that you would rather divorce than admit that you have a problem that's helpful information to myself all right I got to go I guess that's in the behaviors that you've displayed toward me since you've checked in haven't been any different you still distorted the truth I'm going to go and why I've got to go to class I've done in that listen to this anymore I just you understand if we're divorcing I have to obviously like I don't want a divorce so when you say if we're divorcing somebody called me and just check your switching like crazy from both sides I'm just giving you a call I told you the first thing I said I would give you a credit for my decisions and Shifting the blame to you hey I'm not saying I am I am an abuser I am a predator I have abused you in every way that any psychologist would say it is possible for a man to abuse his wife and I am addicted I am absolutely addicted to Shifting the blame onto you to the point that I want to go around to pastors and tell them that we went in for marital counseling because my wife complains about me and my terrible Church leadership told her to divorce me like that's that's the extent to which you're willing to blame shift for your deeply ingrained predatory harmful behaviors you're still doing it off right now in this conversation the fact that you checked into a facility does nothing to change the fact that you are still blame shifting onto me off for some really dark ugly sins I shouldn't be having to own this divorce you shouldn't be asking me to blame for this divorce that that's not a reasonable thing for you to expect me to take off that's not it's not I would not divorce you and we have no biblical basis to divorce you said The more you show me in the Bible what's your biblical basis for abuse justify it with the scripture where you think you should be able to July I know but thought you should be doing that's what you should be searching out what is my basis for Shifting the blame onto my wife what is the basis for me going to different people and only telling them the part of the story that I want them to know for them to think that my wife is taking my children away from me and feel sorry for me that is abuse you are still doing it you do want me to take responsibility for all of this you do want to look like the hero giving me everything no matter anything that long he didn't do yeah you need a marriage ending literally V most Anti divorce girl you could have found on the Fiber space with this planet that's a that's a pretty big one that's I mean it's pretty ultimate honestly but I think what you're saying is that given the situation that I'm absolutely not under any circumstance even if we both live one hundred more years on this planet I'm going to revert to the perspective that I should give into these tactics or actually owns the blame for stuff just cuz you have to blame for it like give him the situation and the new Dynamic Implement anything remotely like that ever thought that leaving me alone now hold on just a second I got to help Lucy sorry that that wasn't trying to put words into your mouth they were my words from my mouth my words from my mouth is that I'm never going to revert to being willing to take on blame for things that you asked me to take on blame for you know that I'm really good wrestling for anything you want me to take blame for our relationship ending in sight I'm saying I'm not somebody who's going to do that just because you want me to I'm going to from now on only take money for things that I actually actually responsible for so for example I can own that I continued living with u and submitting to you when you were doing some really destructive things towards our children and I can own the damage that's done to our children and I can be so awful and remorseful and I can repent of that and I can change my ways because that's something that I objectively know that I did that is cause harm to our family that's the kind of thing I'm willing to own I'm not willing to own things just because you you put them on me for example I don't know I'm a reasonable outcome of your abuse being like Americans I'm not going to own what was actually caused by your abuse so I'm saying that being the case I think that this isn't exactly what you want in a relationship anymore I think the only thing you've ever wanted in a relationship with somebody who could blame shift on you and I'm not sure that so I think you're left with like find a different woman in one who is as naive as I used to be a different woman your life or don't be in a relationship or actually repent and in therapy pursue the right thing which is identifying the wrong causes of of this Behavior I know but you're denying that you can't actually be working on it when you're pretending they're pissed honey I'm trying to make sure that sensibly it's not true is it you wanting to blame me now this is not my fault I'm trying to blame you on saying you are you're saying you saying that it's because I won't talk to him that's not the reasonable that's not a reasonable thing to blame for the fact that you're in denial about doing there's plenty of people who have laid a lot down I hope you see it and honestly a lot of it off already see and you just don't want to admit because you would lose power and control by admitting it and also because you don't know another way of interacting but I'm just saying it's kind of hard to walk play along with your fantasy world where your wife is unbiblical giving you and your addictive and no no there's nothing more you can give her besides everything settlement off of hard for me to play along with that I when I know the reality is that you're pretending you want a relationship with me when in reality you know relationship with a woman who is as naive as I used to be and that's somebody else not me
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: want a relationship with you it's deeper than we've ever had before but you're still all wrapped up in these power and control tactics that shift blame on to me no like I checked in with Jackie this weekend he told me what he really told you and he told me the context and it's different from what I said how well turns out the Elders of the team never asked you know so let me just very scary flat what Founders what they never asked you to let me choose the time-sharing schedule as a team know in in the actual letter they didn't mention that they did ask you to give me full control of the finances and they did ask you to not go around talking to other people about the situation so for you to then pretend that letting me pick the time sharing with one of the requirements in Jackie somehow went against the team and said that they were giving you a call on my wife cancel that was pretty manipulative of that situation because it made Jackie look bad for signing off on a well it made it sound like you signed off on a letter didn't really agree with that's pretty manipulative he told me he was reluctant to sign off on the letter cuz he wasn't comfortable with it he told me that when they gave it to me and he was literally the one that came home but he's not the one who like knows our situation but there's nothing in that letter that that you couldn't have followed the Council of and trust is Jeff it's on the Council of the letter S I know with the fact that he weighed it heavily and he didn't just like oh they gave me this letter I'm going to sign off the fact that he like gave it at the full consideration and the full weight that it was due like shows you that he took it seriously or something to use against him he is a godly man he tells you that you could trust him I'm not trying to use anything against the letter about how they were all divided and not functioning as elders and that wasn't true at all provided the thing what they asked you to do in the letter was to not go around talking to other people about it and you decided to go to new house and then average totally need to talk to completely trustworthy Dustin because they know the actual situation wage and you're trying to paint them as being untrustworthy to get out of being accountable which is what it really comes down to is that you want a marriage in which you're not accountable to anybody not nobody not even God you want to be the be-all-end-all of your decision-making no matter who says that your wife and children are being harmed but you do want the accountability of a church to tell your wife that she's not allowed to escape your abuse that's what that's what you want to search for and that's all you've ever evidently wanted a church for us anyways Jackie didn't give you any advice that one against the ladder cuz the letter didn't say anything about time sharing but you did go against the letter by going and talking to people about it who didn't know the whole story and only giving them the parts of it that painted to the victim I did not do that absolutely did you absolutely did you will have Neil and you allowed to believe that we went in for marital counseling you allowed me to believe that your life was instructed to leave you anybody that you were instructed to leave me what did you make it for me that I wasn't never asked me with your wife and there's some things that you need to make abundantly clear as gigantic headlines may not but you need to wait for somebody to ask you're I'm just saying you're talking about it is very dress where the very Godly team of Elders with excellent discernment who take their role very seriously who study the Bible give it the full way to do in every situation I mean you you just cannot ask I don't think for for better group of people who you can dress that you can change it to but to go and ask them you know whether you should have Cheerios or Fruit Loops for breakfast and then say that that proves that you should never take their advice about anything because they gave you a $1 and number asking something so ridiculous I had a Biblical basis and you got different answers used to be a regular basis but breakfast it's actually much much much much worse much worse because having Cheerios are Fruit Loops is not something that might allow you to continue in your sin of abusing your wife so there's some pretty important context there too I know but the question is why would you ever ask that question who's abusing his wife asked the question of whether she should be forced to remain subject to his abuse wouldn't a better solution be to just stop abusing I mean you're you're just being absolutely absurd and asking a question in the first place it's absurd especially coming from the perpetrator it's absurd and that's why they're not even talking about it that's then there's no need for them to talk about it they solve the problem by asking you to repent that's the obvious solution here what who didn't repent you you you you raised it a notch by doing the same thing to them by devaluing them and by dividing them and by paying them as untrustworthy and painting yourself a good look at it and not just the V but of them I mean it's the same behavior but now you've victims besides just me hello home so my point is that it would be a lot less confusing for both of us moving forward if what we knew was that you don't under any circumstances ever want to have to admit any of that and it's easier for you to just go about your life song from all this accountability and insult and all the uncomfortableness of it if you're somebody who's better off like alone and independent and wise in your own eyes and accountable to God Alone like we can make decisions that are best for our children within that realm of reality and then I don't really understand what it is you're saying that you sent me about Stan enough to do this. Give up on here well when I see you're going to make it in this world I mean that you're not going to kill yourself like if you decide if you decide that you want to live you can live your completely capable of that and yeah if you decide that you want to humble yourself and you weren't to be accountable The Godly men because you recognize that you have severe deficits of character like if you decide that you absolutely can do that you weren't absolutely capable of that I I believe in you because you are really really strong and you are really really smart and you are really really committed and you are really really capable there there is there is still dead nobody in the world that I admire more than you he weren't I mean God made you absolutely amazing thank you to help me here what hello to say that your created can I help you hear you say that you're treated to be my helper yes and I'm sorry that I did so poorly at that you know obviously the lies and manipulations and the truth was something really have the confused for a good Seventeen or eighteen years and I genuinely believed that going along with all your distortions was something that God has called me to but the genuineness of my belief doesn't make it reality reality is that I was really harming you reality is that I was enabling you to sink further into your own delusions reality is it got worse you got a lot worse it got it got worse and worse and worse and I mean I'm absolutely sorry and again I'm I'm absolutely like living on that I don't I'm not a person who you know is adverse to accepting blame or not able to own my part I understand now I understand now that being a help me to somebody with some severe cognitive distortions is different than being a helpmeet to someone who is being humble and honest about their shortcomings and may I now feel like I have a lot more clarity I have a lot more knowledge a lot more support I have a lot more ability to wage talk to other people and to talk to you in a way that honors truth and Honor's on and on as reality so I absolutely can be a much much much much much truer help to you than I ever was before trying to be what you need to do to help me but I'm just so I can be consistent just so I can be consistent in always pointing it out like when you say to me you're supposed to be a help meet to me like that is a tactic of trying to make me feel guilty for not going along with everything that you say it is a tactic that that's ultimate intent is to keep me in a cycle of abuse I don't want you to ever I can't hear you I said that I ever ever ever want you to choose ever okay you got to learn to recognize the way you're doing it though forever I can't I need help you've got so many people helping you guys off like I'm here like I've been able to you