speaker 1:  this call may be recorded
speaker 2: hello hey Dustin kind of realized what you just said on that last call and make sure I'm understanding correctly I think that your mom knew that she was paying for the sessions with Matt horror back when that first started right I mean
speaker 1: she offered to pay for them but was under the impression that it was couples counseling and I don't know
speaker 2: right I'm just saying it's like she just definitely a minute
speaker 1: and just I don't remember if she knew at the time that it was just you know going because
speaker 2: you just can you just stop answering different questions than the ones I'm asking and asking if she knew that that those charges started when they started off you were trying to represent that she only found out that those charges were happening like yesterday right
speaker 1: correct
speaker 2: yeah she knew about it all along and then she knew that you thought she knew that you went to sessions with him or or attended by phone right
speaker 1: she knows that I went to yeah see knows what I attended some sessions I think she thought if I had to guess she thought the earlier sections were being attended by both of us right cuz the cuz
speaker 2: the day that we gave him the credit card you were supposed to be coming just didn't show up remember that was the reason that we gave them the credit card that day yeah cuz I was it was a 10:30 appointment and I was sitting there on his couch at 10:30 and you called at 10:40 to say that you wouldn't be able to make it until 11:30 and I told you that was a problem because they
speaker 1: have enough money to cover
speaker 2: our bills I'm just saying we're invited on the day that we first gave him the credit card information that was the reason that we did give him that credit card information but anyway your mom knows everything she knows that you weren't going to sessions and she knows that you went to a couple of them and then she knows that you stopped going to them right
speaker 1: she knows what I attended some sessions she knows that I stopped going to them I don't know that she knows how many sessions he went to without me in advance of me being able to go yeah but oh yeah
speaker 2: yeah but are you saying that she only just found out yesterday that you had stopped attending or do you think that she more knew that you stopped attending around the time that you stopped
speaker 1: attending wage I think she knows when I stopped attending but she did not realize that she was still paying for
speaker 2: yeah but she knew that she knew that she stopped attending she knew that you stopped attending around the time that you stopped attending you weren't saying that she just found that out right
speaker 1: right right okay
speaker 2: okay so best I can understand is that she calls you to find out what our situation is when you tell her lots of details and best I can understand is the only time that I didn't call her
speaker 1: barely talk to her anymore I talked to her the
speaker 2: week right but this conversation obviously didn't happen on Sunday this conversation yesterday or today right
speaker 1: no it was Sunday
speaker 2: so you do on Sunday that I wasn't able to use that credit card to pay for my session this week but you didn't tell me that
speaker 1: I mean I asked her if she would give me some time to talk to you about it so I don't think she's going to freak out if he use it one more time but she's also k-bap
speaker 2: okay and did she tell you why that's kind of a
speaker 1: problem let's see was thinking that she was using it to get us couples counseling so that we could try and work on our issues
speaker 2: get right did you make it clear why she doesn't want the mother of her grandchildren to have access to therapy at the same rate as the father of her grandchildren do you
speaker 1: want to do things she thinks that
speaker 2: concerns what did you say you work to be honest with me about her concerns as she shared them with you I
speaker 1: can only tell you what she's told me which was that she thinks that you're thinking you're leaving me and you're wanting counseling to support that that your parents should pay for that or we should pay for it and I told her that I would talk to you about it. I told her that I was grateful that you were getting support and therapy and that I would probably pay for it if she doesn't she said that she'd be more comfortable with
speaker 2: that have you explained to her that you can't afford that like does she actually understand the mechanics of not having enough money to meet the monthly bills
speaker 1: I know that she knows that we're short on cash
speaker 2: but does she know about all the credit card debt and what the interest rates are on it and the fact that your paychecks don't cover any
speaker 1: extra specificity I mean she knows that that we have that
speaker 2: problem right I just wonder if she knows like how much the credit card debt is and what the interest rates are and about the fact that there's not extra money left over at the end of a month because she was so confused that time she called me thinking that we were just going to boot out one of our tenants were going to go live in one of the rentals thought it was like I mean I know
speaker 1: she thinks that I know I think I'm just saying she's representing that you're divorcing me and that if you want to have that expensive it should come out of if it's going to come out of somebody else's pocket it should come out of your parents pocket and otherwise she wants us to pay for it right what was that you guys have a whole dynamic going between you two that it's actually feels that you're in the middle of it it's you know it's not between her and I and
speaker 2: you and her it's not between Christine and I it's a triangle that you're in the middle
speaker 1: of okay but I know that she feels heard that she got presents for the kids and did get to hear from the kids and I know that she feels hurt you reject her face time calls so there's animosity between you and her that
speaker 2: well is it true
speaker 1: to say that she
speaker 2: is it truthful that she got presents for the kids and wasn't able to hear from them or is that made up and not true
speaker 1: at all and I know allowing her to rest in. And the
speaker 2: correcting it what presents did she get for them
speaker 1: she got Sam a guitar thing that you asked for
speaker 2: and she faced her with him on his birthday right
speaker 1: I don't know
speaker 2: what do you mean you don't know of course of course you know I I told you
speaker 1: that I didn't know that she told me that she was hurt that she got him a present and she never got to hear from him so 8 but that's not
speaker 2: true because she facetimed with
speaker 1: him okay honey. I'm just telling you what she told me
speaker 2: write that down understand that it's not real like just because a person is feeling heard about something doesn't mean that thing actually happened
speaker 1: trust me I know that but hey it's not it's not a it's not my money or my credit card is
speaker 2: hers I'm not talking about the counseling sessions I'm not I don't want her to pay for counseling what I'm confused about is this it is a triangle you are you are managing what your mother believes about our situation and I can talk about that in any real way she's not you know at this point she's she's just not going to believe me about anything and she is going to talk about what I say to her whether she really believes her own lives or not obviously the the big confusion of everything I wasn't asking about her paying for counseling cuz I I used to pay for counseling I was asking because I was I'm just surprised I guess at the level of detail that you have
speaker 1: given her having given her detail I do not like to talk to her about any of those and that is why if you're sick to my communication with her and when she calls me she knows that we are not supposed to talk about it but often involves her credit card I have to entertain her
speaker 2: concern and you keep we keep talking about that like I that's not why I called you back I called you a
speaker 1: couple of detail that I've given birth
speaker 2: right but you have it I know it was talking about this week I'm talking about the hours that you spend on the phone with her in October and the hours that you sound on phone with her in November and the hours that you spend on the phone with her and in person and December and the hours are spent on the phone with our and in person in January like about cumulative days and days and days and days and days worth of communication going from you to her and a large part is not communication
speaker 1: based on your characterization about how how much time I have community that I do
speaker 2: not
speaker 1: communicating with her and I always a
speaker 2: bit but but I'm well aware that she came to visit you while you were saying in the hotel so we know that the number of hours is greater than three right we're talking about an accumulation of a lot of information being given to her from you and a majority of it off based on a concept of you being a victim this this false idea that you've been displaced from me
speaker 1: in a
speaker 2: hotel she think she has I think I
speaker 1: didn't have anywhere to live life she was paying for the hotel
speaker 2: like I don't have anywhere to live down your mother believes that and it's still a lot because you can still live in on 5 family tries like there's this dog you do not
speaker 1: want me to live at 815 Stanley Drive and I have been deferential you live at a daily drive as you want but that doesn't make you suck having her to go
speaker 2: like
speaker 1: you know when I had to go with the hotel that my mother paid for and she wanted to come visit me there
speaker 2: and I this house right here or this house right here like I'm just saying stop the delusion that you're homeless
speaker 1: is no delusion you I chose at your direction and your life easier to not limit my family drive because that is where you wanted to
speaker 2: live that is not adjusting that is not so much
speaker 1: pleasure you asked for it repeatedly insisted that I was like a few of if I just place you in my children and like well we don't need to argue about it because I agree to do it but
speaker 2: it wasn't it wasn't to my pleasure it wasn't completely it was it to be differential it's because you were a
speaker 1: father it was you know well you shouldn't need me to tell me that. Then you should lead anybody to tell you that I did it I chose to do it and that's a decision that I made
speaker 2: that but it's
speaker 1: if you can't live there and not live with the weekend you live the the other choice was from my mother gave me a hotel room which is where I stayed and when she's paying for hotel rooms and she could come
speaker 2: visit the problem is that your mother is where you have been kicked out of your home by your wife your mother is living in a fantasy where you're the one who's working too early as money and earn the one who's making the money like that fantasy is not a fantasy all of your Communications
speaker 1: are not close enough to the microphone or
speaker 2: something okay I'm saying that in your communication with your mother there's an underlying assumption that you have been kicked out of your house that you paid for when I am the one who's working and providing and now you know are homeless and then your communication with your mother
speaker 1: have say she doesn't have any inaccurate other than whatever she can try is interfering
speaker 2: you can't be here Thursday which is not true that's your decision that you're making as a father so you own it but
speaker 1: I don't think she's actually confused about that so
speaker 2: I think she I think she is I think you're throwing in your business about being differential and your wife pleading with you
speaker 1: and that is deferential Aaron not going to keep you out of our house because I care about you
speaker 2: you you you don't need to kick me out you can just live here and I can choose what I want to do and where I want to go because I'm a separate person from you but you've got your mom thinking that I
speaker 1: know if I move in then you're moving out and we both know that that's not reasonable for children
speaker 2: that's usually doesn't that's that's again you were decision as a father not someone who is so blinded by years of arguing over toxic woman that he can't see reality that it would be helpful healthy for them to stop being homeless like that's what you're letting your mom think you're letting your mom think that I'm doing voodoo on you and causing you to not be able to act in your own best interest off and in reality she has no idea what the finances are she doesn't understand the attraction that you can't actually live in one of our rental she doesn't understand that she doesn't know I
speaker 1: live in one of our rentals you can
speaker 2: you can't you don't have enough we don't make enough money to do that you have all this credit card debt it's still not enough and it was like I want to earn more money but like I want you to go back in time and not have run up all the credit card debt in the first place but obviously that's not possible and that's not my fault because I didn't know about it like your your mom does not actually understand the situation and I don't know how she can because it sounds like you don't either
speaker 1: I know the situation perfect
speaker 2: for you I don't think that you do I think that you think that you can go live in one of our rentals and that's a reasonable wage and I don't think that you have adequately explained to your mom no Mom I can't go live in one of our rentals I went up $150,000 in debt while receiving my wife and two thinking everything was under control no moms and interest rate for over 30% and we've got well over $1,000 each month so we just to service debt you don't interrupt her to tell her that when she's saying that I'm concerned that your wife has you brainwashed to not do what's best for yourself do not interrupting her to say you know that done yes he has she has and you replied by email you applied to that email by saying Nathan this is actually all pretty much accurate that was your response. We actually claiming that yeah an email that was really all based on the concept of your wife being so toxic to you took that she gets you to not act in your own best interest in controlling taking your money wanting you to have nowhere to live not caring just the parent if the father of her children has a roof over his head at night that's all she email was about and your response was not hold on Nathan my mom has no idea what I have done
speaker 1: to repair driver said the same way as follows the information as well
speaker 2: and he doesn't that's not true. You can lie all you want but I'm well aware of what Nathan does not know
speaker 1: based on what
speaker 2: no you know enough time communicating with her that I am well aware that you did not disclose how much the credit card debt was and how you hid from me and what your tax credit for me and what our monthly right now you did hide it for me and they don't even know even if they did know that you hit it they wouldn't usually to you can't even had that for them so if you if you don't even believe that you hit it for me and you can't admit to them that you hid it from me then how in the world are you going to get into the details of the devious tactics that you utilized to hide it with me there's no way there's no way that they can know what the taxes are when it hasn't even been disclosed that you did it in the first place they don't know your mom doesn't know text tactics that's the tactic I know tactics there weren't any tactics that you utilized against me to make sure that I stayed in the dark about what you were doing with our money if you're if you're lying to me about it you're lying to yourself about it there's no way there's no there's no way you're there's no way you're being honest with your mom so you're just talking about Taco Bell who's been over this I'm not going to repeat it you can go back and listen to all of our phone calls and you'll find at least ten to Fifteen occasions on which I have detailed what the exact tactics were that you utilized to keep me in the dark about what you were doing that was detrimental to our finances but your mom has no idea she has no concept of the poor financial decisions you've made in the abusive ways that you've kept me in the dark and supporting you or not she has no idea what we are able to afford and not able to afford and I'm a little bit disturbed that you think that we can afford $100 right now I just I don't feel like there's a lot of math going on it's concerning
speaker 1: the pay for it
speaker 2: off because I'm not going to I'm not going to do it anymore am I going to therapy anymore but I don't know how to help you if we don't have the money like money and I'm not calling you because I want to go to therapy anymore like I am a big girl I'm an adult I can make good financial decisions based on the assets that are actually available to me not based on my own appetite for what I want to purchase and consume and think that I need in my life in order to be okay like I don't have them unhappy assets to go to say
speaker 1: I would strongly encourage you to keep going to therapy
speaker 2: what
speaker 1: if you're thinking you're getting the value out of my mother's $100 off with us here if you slide is it not make sense basket pants to cover that cost you still have that concern
speaker 2: I didn't call you because I desire for your mother to continue paying for those sessions that's not why I called you
speaker 1: saying that I called you because
speaker 2: her okay well the question that you're asking me right now outside of anything that I think is your business so I'm totally fine with your mom not paying for that anymore the reason why I called you today ma'am because that illuminated from me the level of her real-time knowledge of what happening in our
speaker 1: relationship charging my credit card for
speaker 2: therapy well yeah
speaker 1: okay that's fine. It's cuz that's the only level of knowledge when she
speaker 2: has but you're not being transparent with me about exactly what date and time she discovered that you went attending sessions anymore
speaker 1: so what time what
speaker 2: when she discovered that you weren't attending sessions anymore
speaker 1: I don't know whenever I stop I told her exactly
speaker 2: I mean you get off going with this
speaker 1: right yes that I would not go
speaker 2: any yes but this Sunday was the day that she said who I don't want to sit down right I thought you said she has
speaker 1: can't go to therapy anymore why is there still therapy being charged to my credit card it seems like a perfectly rational question to me you
speaker 2: told me that I said that you can't go to therapy anymore
speaker 1: I told her that you said that you were divorcing me and that we weren't going to they're being
speaker 2: okay so I'm just saying your mom has a pretty good knowledge of what's Happening as it happened that every staff when something has happened and I talked to her go in there is
speaker 1: not to talk to me about our relationship but when it comes to her credit card being charged for their be easy as a right to know hey we're not doing that anymore or hey I'm still being charged even though you're not doing that anymore what's going on like yes
speaker 2: right they're telling me that way back at the time of the day when I told you that you needed to not do the sessions with me anymore I remember that so you got on the phone with your mom at that time and you told her she said I can't go through and she's divorcing me I think you probably called I'm just saying there's there's a high level of detail that is being given to her in real time from your perspective which doesn't at all reflect
speaker 1: the whole
speaker 2: story same amount of
speaker 1: detail relative to the use of her credit card and a therapy session but I
speaker 2: know you keep changing the you could changing the subject back to it only
speaker 1: took a high level in real time and it but I keep naming things that specific to the use of her credit card I actually she's
speaker 2: naming a lot of things that are not related changing the subject to the credit app and I keep naming things that you've been telling her that are not related to her credit card
speaker 1: that's going to say he is a credit
speaker 2: card. She says that she's divorcing me so I can't go anymore but that's obviously an extra level which she can't properly digest when she doesn't know the truth about our financial situation the ways that you received in the past like nobody haven't actually done and I was
speaker 1: getting
speaker 2: divorced it is not helpful when the divorce has not finalized and is not even actively being processed when she met somebody who has been fed a lot of this troops and half-truths about what led us to this point it's not super healthy for you to be engaging with somebody who is going to support you unconditionally either if she finds out that you murdered me like not really helpful Thursday and you have some bearing you and you know emotions helps you had the body like you know that
speaker 1: no don't go too bad
speaker 2: okay okay
speaker 1: yeah
speaker 2: hopefully you'll never find out I know I know I know I know I know you and I both know that you push my mom and you and I both know that your mom is ready to testify that you didn't so you know we know we know you know what kind of person she is and we know what level of helpfulness she's going to be in this situation with helpfulness
speaker 1: how come and
speaker 2: hopefulness yes yes she knows that she can be helpful to you by being present to witness you committing a crime and then let her testify that she was the only eyewitness and it definitely didn't happen she knows she can get me on the phone she knows that she can get me on the phone and she can turn around and say that she didn't say things but she definitely said she know I have a mental and emotional problems because of the conversation on the phone that didn't happen to it she says it happens it she knows that she can watch football in your favor in a court of law but she doesn't have to say anything that's true we both know this about her we know you know I know we've seen her do it with you and I know you understand
speaker 1: me as much a month I think is thinks he does and they do not talk to her about anything and for me and
speaker 2: okay so so you didn't so you didn't tell her about your time with the kids this weekend
speaker 1: my time if the kids this weekend yeah no I didn't okay there's something I can do to he's going to
speaker 2: therapy no
speaker 1: there's something I can do to help you at all
speaker 2: no I guess probably not climb you like me to ask me a question about you know bank account or drawing cash or you know money or something like that, it's probably better if you just message me
speaker 1: oh
speaker 2: I don't really want you to call me anymore and I don't really want to talk to you
speaker 1: anymore I want you to be
speaker 2: happy you're terrible and you're consistently consistently terrible to me so I am found in Happy on the day is that I may have to have any communication with you I've never in my whole life so that level of comfort and freedom and my biggest challenge in life is to brush aside the thought of money like what's he going to do next like the fears of what situation you're going to stir up or what messages you're going to send me like and I just if I can have the security of knowing that that's not going to happen then like I'm fine
speaker 1: sad when you say that you say that it makes me sad when you say that we have to and I hope that's pretty some miracle I can get that some day
speaker 2: that we don't think the same way out what I
speaker 1: want you to be happy it makes me sad when you say that about communicating with me I hope through some miracle that someday I can make you happy and I hope that we do not break up this family
speaker 2: go back I mean that's kind of ridiculous and you know one more element of it being just miserable to communicate with you because what we're doing is making it durable to communicate with you but you are completely inconsistent and don't make sense and you know you know that you're the one who sat in Aaron's office week after week saying this whole marriage is a tragedy I wish it had never happened there's never been a single. Of goodness in our life and our relationship like make it came from
speaker 1: you yeah you got an oil change I said there was a taxes
speaker 2: know you said all of it you said all of that Aaron was trying to attack that would be okay but when I was kind of sucks hey it was actually kind of that time that we went up to Mount Airy and stayed at Pilot Mountain you would like you you laughed at me and you go that was what three days off with your phone that it had always been back so it's like you know you know you know you know that you've always off been bad to me and you know that you were bad to me this week and you know that the children are suffering for it and you know that it's getting worse and not better off you know
speaker 1: actually I don't know any of that you do you do you know when do they what I don't want to I don't want to argue with you I do not understand what you just said life goal and has always been my life goal to serve you and
speaker 2: no still worried know it's always been about illness like I you know that I'm aware of person you know better than you know that I function as an adult you know that I'm able to care for myself and care for my children and plan ahead and organize my day and you know that I'm well in fact you know that on top of all of that functioning I can even over function to the point of carrying out basic adult planning skills on your behalf so I can I can do
speaker 1: you have wonderful amazing yeah you know amazing better than most people
speaker 2: skills and characteristics yeah you know but I
speaker 1: feel drained that we're going to break up this family in some of this stuff that I think you're
speaker 2: not but that's the funny part because none of it
speaker 1: going to it's going to follow you
speaker 2: off but it won't because it was never coming from being like that that's the thing that you've got to recognize I'm not doing anything to cause this month I'm
speaker 1: not
speaker 2: I'm not in
speaker 1: psychological not
speaker 2: making they don't know you know that they don't know we've had this conversation over and over and over and over you tell them what my reactions are some stations
speaker 1: but but they don't but you don't
speaker 2: tell them what they don't know what caused it they don't know what you did cause me to react in this way and if they don't think that you're good the things that you did but these reactions are all just coming from me they're starting with me the craziness is telling me is why I'm getting all this stuff and accusing you was lying when you're not lying that is a woman who is not well but the woman the woman who was responding to what you have wrought is a well woman who needs to be away from home because you shouldn't have done all of these things to oh well we women needs to get away from someone who has religiously used and abused victimizer year after year after year after year after year even now as she's begging him to stop he continues so I think it's great for you to get you a pair of pants and only tell him your side of the story and not tell him those parts of it that you don't
speaker 1: even necessary I play your phone calls
speaker 2: off exactly like you can make the a little crazy and that's saying something you can make me work for me and that's saying something but but that doesn't mean not dead that doesn't mean that they actually see but that doesn't mean that they actually see what you did that causes be able to say the things that doesn't mean that they actually know what you age that causes me to be crazy on the phone with you
speaker 1: all the open mic time in the world and we'll get more
speaker 2: money I know but that doesn't
speaker 1: know that
speaker 2: I know I don't think that I don't think that what you really need at this point is for somebody to open your therapist took about things that you've done I think what you really need at this point is a therapist who only sees things from your point of view because if you can get that then you can get that therapist to a Hearn that your wife is sick and if you can really cautious and appreciate and believe in your heart that your wife is toxic then maybe you can get over me and if you can get over me then you can move on with your life and if you can move on with your life yep stop victimizing me and that's all I've Ever Needed and that's how you reach your goal of making me be okay and making me be happy yes yeah I hear you I still hear you
speaker 1: I hope I hope that is me
speaker 2: you don't need to hope you don't need to hope it's a promise no no it's a promise and you don't need to do manipulative things like you just did to try to plant seeds of doubt in my mind but I think oh my God I'm going to divorce him and then find out it was all me all along I was the one he was tactic the one he was causing this like I know I'm just saying you don't even need to say I hope oh I just hope that you would be okay but I have real fear that this thing is going to follow you but you don't need to talk to me like that that's manipulative straight up
speaker 1: I love you with all my
speaker 2: heart then stop it not trying to feed me straight up manipulation you're clearly not wanting to own what you've done to me clearly not aware of it to me
speaker 1: hey do you want everything that done to you including whatever