speaker 1: 
speaker 2: hello
speaker 1: Mommy hey what's up oh and decided to skip my classes so that I could have some time to try and figure out what I should do for a living situation yes but I really don't have any idea what to do for a living situation yeah that we can get on the same page with that so that we can be on the same page with that whole I've sometimes
speaker 2: okay well I think obviously where you should be is in in the house where I live and your children live and that doesn't work because you're unable to identify what's the dangerous I don't feel about that situation so that's something you're working toward long-term
speaker 1: right yes
speaker 2: and then when it became apparent to me that it was dangerous and harmful and that you will not working toward understanding that and that you were more intent on proving that you were allowed to do those behaviors in front of your children my idea was for you to go to my parents house because that's the the place that most keeps you in touch with the reality of needing to work toward seeing the destructive Behavior patterns you have toward me can you identify why that didn't
speaker 1: work
speaker 2: asking you to go to my dad's
speaker 1: house I mean I wasn't willing to go to your dad's house I
speaker 2: know but can you identify why that was cuz that was a really destructive thing that you
speaker 1: did all they think the lockers need to go see what the parents of my estranged spouse I guess
speaker 2: and when you say awkward you
speaker 1: mean and are you talking about before I don't really remember I think you were threatened with me but when you say awkward
speaker 2: what you really mean is
speaker 1: privacy privacy or talk to people about our situation
speaker 2: and just okay so you think that what's going on between us is something that is important to hide from
speaker 1: others oh no you
speaker 2: just think that it's important to hide it from my parents because they're not likely to the objective they're more likely to Alliance with
speaker 1: me I understand what they're going to align with you I just
speaker 2: when do you feel like that's a positive thing or do you think that's
speaker 1: that I love your parents I think I
speaker 2: know I'm just wondering why you think it would be bad for our marriage to have eyes on it of people who love me and are devoted off welfare hold on just a second let me talk to sales I'm sorry about that just a minute you see what I'm saying you're feeling like they need to be
speaker 1: lots of people have lots of ideations they have about me that some of them are true and some of them aren't but people here say that I need to speaking with a licensed therapist all right well that know either one of us what's your mom has told me that she my mom told you what she doesn't have to interact with me or
speaker 2: will you were calling her and telling her lies and you were calling her a manipulating her wage and make
speaker 1: a let me live yeah
speaker 2: you were a you told her that I was on all of the credit card accounts and it had full access to all of the financial information all along you told her that you were willing to do anything for me when you
speaker 1: wouldn't are you really going to be staying there. That's what you
speaker 2: want no I'm just trying to figure out how many Inception levels we are away from reality because that's the barrier to you living here with me is your desire to not have accountability two people in your own life who do see things objectively whether you want to accept that or not do
speaker 1: you want accountability and I do want things to work between us I just want the advice that we get home from therapist
speaker 2: I know but that's a really like like that's a really really good way to isolate me from people who have actually seen your behavior is to take me into a wife washed clinical setting huh it
speaker 1: can come with us say
speaker 2: would you be willing to go to a therapist with CA and not me until you have worked it
speaker 1: out yeah
speaker 2: would you be willing to go to a therapist with Aaron not me until you guys have worked it
speaker 1: out yeah
speaker 2: okay cuz that that's the real problem the real problem is you devaluing
speaker 1: them the market on the end
speaker 2: just yeah you are because they have the exact same perception as I have there's no difference no difference and how they perceive it and how I perceive it but you and your therapist have decided that you and I are going to isolate ourselves from anybody who's gotten to see the behavior first-hand and go to a different Church where people are going to assume that you and I are on equal footing and you're going to convince me that you're genuine and you really love me but not put any effort into convincing Aaron and see a well the only reason that you would Target having a relationship with me and changing my perception is because you want me back under your power and control the only reason that you would not pursue it with them is because they're going to hold you accountable to not pursuing power and control over me so that's why that's not really a healthy Dynamic for you to cut them out but Target me there are a lot more objective than I am obviously so if if anything if you're any more innocent than people think you are it should be easier to convince them of that than to convince me of
speaker 1: it okay
speaker 2: which is the third thing like you know you being able to live with CA
speaker 1: what that's a good thing
speaker 2: but I'm saying like that's the third level away from where you belong is living at his house like can you identify why that doesn't work why you're getting so many levels away from being able to
speaker 1: never told me then internal to me that work you never said to me that there was a and that was internal to me why it didn't work hold on
speaker 2: all right sorry about that okay so you feel like you were doing everything that's asked you to do and you feel like you were heating all of his
speaker 1: advice I I'm just I don't know about I think that I was and I think that he thinks that wasn't and that's precisely what I was saying I was saying that dissatisfied with something that I did and that's why I needed that ring backs not what he
speaker 2: told me oh you're saying you're saying they just didn't have the space for you
speaker 1: anymore. really didn't have the space for me and they did not receive that things are getting better between us which is what they had hoped for and so they didn't seem exact it wouldn't progress towards anything worthwhile wasn't
speaker 2: yeah but you felt like you were doing everything yeah you felt like you were following all of them
speaker 1: said that I was in not really call in that was I think it was after I left there
speaker 2: okay so like when you like berated me and all those messages for being manipulative and getting two weekends in a row you felt like that was under the umbrella of how CA had told you to interact with me and you felt like the those messages were approved by him or or would have easily been approved by him if he'd shown him before you hit send cuz I know you guys had a lot of
speaker 1: conversations kind of a lot of different advice from the elders and I cannot recall all of their various receptions at that time so I certainly didn't show him those messages and I don't think that he told me I had to show on my messages with my
speaker 2: wife no I'm saying you feel like he would approve like he would say yeah that's how I would speak to Jamie or yeah that's something that's really healthy for you guys and it's going to bring you back together or yeah that message shows me that you're serious about honoring her yeah that message shows me that you're not shifting blame anymore like do you feel like and I'm not saying all the different advice you've got enough cuz I know that you can get somebody to say you need to fight for your kids when you look like a sad puppy dog whose kids have been taken away when that's not the case but what you know about his character because you know his heart and because you can easily see what kind of man and husband he is do you honestly feel like that's consistent with the way he would want you to word that
speaker 1: message I think a lot of the advice I've gotten from could be characterized as not getting any rights as a husband or a father and giving you everything that you asked for so long me asking for my children no I don't think that he would work that in any way shape or form
speaker 2: well I think that I think that if you have written me at the time but yeah I just think that you knew in a parts you knew that you were rebelling against what God was asking you to do Through The Godly example he had put right out front of you
speaker 1: no and like I said I don't recall if he made that statement by then or not but
speaker 2: I'm not talking about the statement about just cleared of a man like his the image of CA as existing in a way that shows what it looks like to honor a
speaker 1: woman
speaker 2: in your heart of hearts
speaker 1: conversations with a therapist so that we can process them together
speaker 2: Dustin you're talking about like a marriage and family therapist right
speaker 1: I mean I don't care they that's what they do with my therapist here recommends is that we see marriage
speaker 2: I know that means that the communication problem
speaker 1: any therapist or compass process
speaker 2: but this I
speaker 1: mean even that'll be a marriage and
speaker 2: therapist this isn't really about like me communicating better to you like there's not a woman on the face of this earth that could be clear as I am this is a matter of denial that message that you wrote me about me having two weekends in a row being manipulative and arbitrary and capricious that was nasty dust and that was nasty and it was off the belt it was way below the belt I mean I cried once throw up it just is Icky it's icky it's it's you know it like if you saw another man do that you would be angry if if Jeremy had done that to me while they had stuff going on you would have said that he was a a loser
speaker 1: I mean you
speaker 2: don't talk to women that way there's a court system for a for a purpose if somebody's really doing something terrible then you file a motion but you're framing me for being a bad mom you're framing me for being manipulative towards you you're framing me for trying to take your children away when I'm thrilled that they're getting more time with you than they ever had it's icky and controlling and manipulative to write messages to me like that to try to make me feel ashamed and and again like it's kind of like all these micro issues like any any given day that you can point to on a calendar I can tell you what you were doing on that day that was really bad really emotionally abusive and yeah framing me for keeping the kids two weekends in a row to defraud you that's emotionally abusive because it's intended to make me feel terrible about myself it's intended to make me ashamed of myself it's intended to make me think that I am a monster that we both know I'm not I tended to make me think twice before making any decisions that I think are best for my kids in the future for fear that it's going to be twisted around on me and there's no reason for me to not be thinking that way just this week you took the fact that I quoted Ted in saying well if you really want to be married to me then just agree with everything I say and never have an opinion again and you twisted that into my wife wants to make all the decisions for me and is therefore now her responsibility to figure out where I'm going to live next week and I am just referring to her office phone call day I know I know I'm just saying I'm just saying you twisted it what I said which was exactly what Ted said never have an opinion again off and you snowballed it real quick into I'm doing everything you say well guess what you've proven that you have no intention of never having an opinion again which was the Crux of it you you've proven I had no opinion of never arguing with me again which was the Crux of it and you've turned it solely into your wife wants you to go to set free by the sea and has zero discernment about what's best for your mental health and you've made me look even worse to all of your councillors made me look even more controlling to all of your counselors and you've given your counselors even more reason to not understand that I'm the victim of your abuse like I told you before I mentioned that I have a hole where I am blind why it was really dangerous because you flipped things like that around on me check me into thinking but it's safe for me to say out loud what I think is best because I have way more intimate knowledge about the situation than anybody else does and as soon as I do it going to be flipped around on me some day that I made this bad choice or this was my mom called because that's what you did this week by twisting around never have an opinion about anything again and don't argue with me which is what pet said into my wife wants to tell me everything to do oh look she told me to go back where they
speaker 1: decided that you didn't want to do it but now I'm having
speaker 2: to do
speaker 1: what things where I live but I really need to be
speaker 2: yeah I know I'm making the whole thing into that I said that I wanted to choose where you live but you understand that's within the context of like you actually accepting it when I say dusting when I asked you to leave the law residence and you didn't do it that was aggressive when Brianna asked you to leave the law residence and you wouldn't without Kevin making you that was aggressive when you stalked me down to church Hall way to get me alone so you could accuse me of having a man and our kitchen that was aggressive when you messaged me that I had manipulated you into getting the kids two weekends in a row that was all shortly abusive like when I tell you those things you should just be accepting them because they're important things for you to learn so that you can change those really bad behaviors they're not things that we need to have a conversation about they're not things that require some back-and-forth I gave you the information that was creepy information given birth move on to a new topic it's creepy everybody who sees it knows it so when you say that you were living at the McDonald's and our relationship wasn't getting better it was getting worse there are things that you were doing while you were there that were absolutely the opposite of the council see a would have given you and you're telling me you know that because you're
speaker 1: telling me I mean to speak with okay I hope that you hold on just a second can you hold a moment
speaker 2: and and I think that I'm still telling you that there's if if this is really about your papers because you don't see them I think that there's other people in our life who can help you with that and I it shouldn't be me I think that I'm your target victim and it's a lot easier to convince somebody that this is poor Aaron for emotionally frail because she's a woman and she needs you for her self-esteem Aron or Arron this is her own perception of you not understanding how genuine and wonderful you are and I know I'm saying there's there's no reason it needs to be me buddy helping you see there's plenty of people who can help you see it who aren't going to have their judgement questioned because they're your wife who's
speaker 1: hurt I don't think anybody thinks that you're hurt yeah
speaker 2: they do they think that I'm too close to the situation to see it circumspectly they think that I don't see how genuine you are they think that I'm trying to control you there's there's zero reason that it needs to be made when so many people have seen it zero reason for it to be
speaker 1: me I've been going to like counseling daily for a long time and I don't think I'm going to be able to tackle these issues if you don't come talk to somebody else
speaker 2: there's zero reason it needs to be me zero there's enough people who can help you see these
speaker 1: things it's not the advice that I was given by people who are licensed in psychology
speaker 2: well why don't you ask them why they want to talk to me about it right or why don't you tell the victim what why don't you ask
speaker 1: them I'll be scared let me scared I need a they're recommending a marriage counselor so that we can both be a client but if give advice wage here have limited time resources every single time I talked about you I say that you're a wonderful person that I cherish and
speaker 2: I know but that makes it look like it's see you when you say that about me that completely completely misrepresents our relationship that that that makes me look like all I need to do is get in a room with a counselor who can help me clearly see how much you love being a door me and how trustworthy you
speaker 1: are I mean I've told you
speaker 2: Thursday cuz we need to mail that to the
speaker 1: plumber what happened what
speaker 2: Simon got in the mail but it hasn't gone
speaker 1: out
speaker 2: yet it's okay buddy you put it back
speaker 1: I told Ted what I'm telling
speaker 2: you which is that it's pretty suspect that you're telling me that you're sorry for everything and you see that you've been terrible to me and all of that but that you're not willing to pursue reconciliation from with the men who lived her have said the exact same thing because they saw the exact same thing with their own lies I told him how is that safe said that
speaker 1: huh when did you tell Todd had that
speaker 2: on Friday know that was Friday
speaker 1: and he
speaker 2: said he said I could tell you
speaker 1: said and Megan have both told me to not go back to that church and to find a different one month and
speaker 2: yeah but that's because you told said that W
speaker 1: that issue
speaker 2: you said nobody that you said nobody at that church likes you and he said easy solution don't go to that church anymore he's not affirming through that that's me he said you told him nobody at that church likes me and he said then don't go to that church anymore says I give Dustin solutions for graduate
speaker 1: they all right pull them that nobody at that church likes me
speaker 2: all right what's funny that he thinks she said that and you've told me that and you interrupted me I was saying that I said how am I supposed to trust but what he's saying to me about being sorry for these Behavior patterns is genuine faith in the people who have seen those Behavior patterns with their own two eyes he wants to get away from being accountable to them and he basically told me that you don't want accountability he was like can't you see he did not something Dustin wants to be accountable to other people in his marriage it was almost like he was mocking me for wasting all of my life is all this month you're talking you into something that you're never going to want and that we're both so silly for trying to get each other to change you want me to change I want you to change another one you wants to change well
speaker 1: I never told them that I don't want accountability in her
speaker 2: marriage he told me that he told me that if if you're not wanting to you said the elders when it comes to you then you have your makes it clear that he was not wanting to the advice of the elders when they come and ask you to do something then that's clear about something that you want and it's fruitless for me to waste my breath trying to convince you to change that
speaker 1: am I haven't talked about that so I don't know where that's coming from but was it true I told the elders that I will continue to get their advice
speaker 2: yeah but all you've done is manipulated I don't agree with that but
speaker 1: that is something that we should talk with a counselor about if I am manipulating it but I am
speaker 2: no I'm saying I'm saying that you can get counseling with our elders okay cuz they're more than capable without being your target victim and without being suspected of being off in their perceptions of you they're more than capable of helping you see these behaviors wage and if there's any future for you and I ever again ever whether it's five years from now or whether we get back together twenty-five years from now it's not possible for that to happen when it's not a situation where you're willing to have outside eyes on it who you trust their judgments
speaker 1: you're going to be
speaker 2: no therapist you can quit no therapist anything you want you can say that their
speaker 1: effort into arguing with third parties and I can tell you from experience. But that's going to be fruitless and they probably aren't even getting engage in it so they
speaker 2: yeah I know that's what's great about me is that I never give up like being abused in an argument
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: have amazing stamina that not everybody has but I'm not asking you to go to a counselor and argue and go back and forth on stupid stuff like whether you bought a house when you were asked to the first time I know it needs to be hey you didn't leave the law house when you were asked to oh
speaker 1: next time I'm at least the last
speaker 2: this is the stupid part Dustin this is the part where it's stupid and this is the part where other people won't engage with you so yeah if you're saying it's pointless to have one of them go to counseling with me because they won't continue a conversation once we get to the part where I say I did leave as soon as I was asked to that's why this is this is why you can't have relationships with people it's not normal for somebody to continue on in a relationship with somebody who says I did leave as soon as I was asking because there's not anything to talk about anymore literally and you would love to do this in front of a counselor wouldn't you cuz you just put us on an equal playing field against my word that you left when you were asked to my word is that you didn't okay counselors going to say we need to move on there's no point in talking about that you're never going to say that he left he didn't leave when he left when he was asked you and he's never going to say that he
speaker 1: did
speaker 2: that's why it doesn't need that doesn't need to be met Dustin
speaker 1: you
speaker 2: make me look stupid you look like we're two two year olds having a back and forth about it I'm not a two-year-old I'm an adult with eyes and ears who knows what happened and doesn't deserve to be gaslighted just like Kevin is just like Brianna's I am know Dustin no you're a predator
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: mean I don't know maybe I don't know if there's I don't know if there's something in this where I don't know I don't want to say it because everybody already evidently thinks that I'm trying to Gaslight you into thinking there's something wrong with you when there's not but if I don't remember frequent ongoing extreme domestic violence at South 18th Street and it's family Drive
speaker 1: only ethical but I can remember when you coming at me and by retaliation was to hug you may not be from hitting me is that what you're talking about no
speaker 2: nobody
speaker 1: if you would engage with the counselor and there's things that I somehow repressed my memory on they could help draw those out of me I can't one hundred percent willing and committed to getting all the help that I need to be a good person and I just you're not you're not you're not yes I am you're not you're
speaker 2: not you're not you'll say whatever it takes to get me back into the cycle but you're not actually
speaker 1: willing I'm very sorry you feel that way if I wish that it's
speaker 2: not a feeling Dustin my perception is not off it's my perception is not off
speaker 1: okay
speaker 2: you speak to me in an extremely threatening tone of voice and and I know that that day that Brianna came out and asked you to leave I know that what you were telling Kevin was home she always says it's my tone of voice this is my voice it's my body I can't change my voice that's some pretty serious gaslighting going on right now I know but your triangulating you're going to the third party to try to convince the third party that my perception is off even though you now have lots of other people who have all experienced the same thing that I've been experiencing for fifteen years which is that you emotionally abused me with your mannerisms you speak to me in a way that is attempting to manipulate me by listening
speaker 1: shame I'm very sorry that I've been arguing with you about the I'm not supposed to be with
speaker 2: you exactly so if I say if I say I asked you to leave the law house and you didn't you tried to shame me again you say oh and then we move on with our lives and you keep that locked up there in your brain as information that's going to help you learn how to stop doing those things the next time you're asked by a woman to leave a residence that you don't own because she feels really uncomfortable you're going to be more likely to do it because you actually wrote that down in your brain as in dog. Inappropriate behavior that you need to try to avoid it's not something we need to argue about that's what I'm talking about when I say don't argue with me and never have an opinion again I I mean I should be able to say that was creepy how you stalked me in the church hallway and you say oh so that you can actually record that in your brain as something that you don't do to women because it feels predatory it's not something that needs to be argued about is that is that make sense I'm not I'm not doing this because I want you to like get punished or go to jail about it I'm doing it because they're really destructive behaviors but I would like you to be freed from home
speaker 1: oh yes if the baron
speaker 2: yeah I'm sorry I need to help Simon with something can you go
speaker 1: yeah can you hear me
speaker 2: all right hold on so anyways that's this is a conversation about where you could live next week because
speaker 1: if
speaker 2: your goal is to divorce me and move on with your lie because my goal you that's what I mean then then it makes sense that the most important thing would be to make sure that you have enough medication to numb your conscience and make sure that you have enough medication to go to work every day and make sure that you have enough medication that you can focus on paying your bills and you know providing for your own household separate from your children and all of that but if your goal is to ever have a relationship where you can live with another adult ever for the rest of your life this isolating me is not going to work isolate yeah I know but you're like somehow in favor of this idea that you've come up with with them that you shouldn't have any accountability oh cuz you understand you understand the hiring hiring a therapist who you go to once a week you can quit anytime that's not accountability
speaker 1: that's
speaker 2: that's not a
speaker 1: person going to a therapist I need to see a therapist I
speaker 2: know but that's not accountability that's that's advising counseling that's not accountability that's not a person I can go to at 1:00 a.m. with my children in fear and now I'm going to have a bed to sleep in
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: think there's a lot of people who you could live with if you were behaving in pro-social ways
speaker 1: don't know how to do any better than to follow you by slipping get here no is it
speaker 2: sorry about that have you explained to Deb that these people are people that you trust and have good judgment and haven't LED you wrong on any count like Ted understand that aspect of it that God has really really richly blessed us beyond what maybe anybody else has ever met in his life has has had in terms of good Godly canceled I feel like it's kind of unique yeah
speaker 1: I have my opinion and he is giving me his opinion based on what I have said and
speaker 2: his I didn't ask did you give him as your opinion I asked if you tell him did you tell him specifically that these off his
speaker 1: people yes I did and it's not something that's new to them they would always recommend not using a church for that purpose
speaker 2: it's not for marriage counseling Dustin it's for accountability which is completely different from marriage
speaker 1: counseling office
speaker 2: did you explain that like did
speaker 1: you I think they view it as marriage
speaker 2: counselling but did you explain that it was accountability
speaker 1: yes there and they did okay don't think that
speaker 2: if we need marriage counseling there's no problem going for marriage counseling but if you're abusing your wife you need to just stop abusing your wife you know what I
speaker 1: mean I agree with you
speaker 2: I have to go I think the boys heard each other by by