speaker 1:  hi hi Mommy you doing better today little bit
speaker 2: okay I'm sorry about last
speaker 1: night what about it
speaker 2: I just made it a you said that you were having a stressful time and I ended up adding to it and that hadn't been my
speaker 1: intention off okay I don't remember sorry
speaker 2: you were saying it just real stressful with your mom and I ended up like talking about your mom and how you should have responded when I told you about my conversation you know silly I didn't have to do that at that time
speaker 1: okay
speaker 2: so you coming up with a plan
speaker 1: not really
speaker 2: know what's what's Ted telling you to
speaker 1: do nothing else what do you mean and he says they have resources here to help me find a house if I don't have anywhere to live really no prescriptive thing that he sold
speaker 2: me does that feels am applicable to you
speaker 1: no I think I'm going to have my mom in our house does that feel wise to you
speaker 2: all right well those those rent for significantly more than apartments that are very very close to your work sites so you're going to be spending a lot of gas money out of our joint resources unnecessarily and those expenses are going to cause you to continue to have additional credit card debt servicing obligations which is many thousands of dollars to debt servicing that will not go towards providing for your children in the future so I think I think that you're smart enough and experienced enough to connect the dots and understand that your mother is putting me in a month and extraordinarily vulnerable position and is going to have way more power and control over me than you will and that is by Design and that they were only 1 million unpredictable ways that she will then have financial leverage to make me look bad or force me to give you what she wants me to give you or force me to go live where she wants me to have to go live
speaker 1: I can't I can't do this
speaker 2: okay I'm just telling you that if that's what you're pursuing then you are
speaker 1: I can talk to you again do
speaker 2: this okay I just I just feel like you deserve to understand well off or choosing with your whole life before you choose it because she's making it really appealing and she's got you right where she wants you and if you do it because you feel like you have no choice then you've you've not really made the choice yourself you've just let her choose that there's no way that you're going to put me in that position okay do you understand though that you have
speaker 1: options no you have options
speaker 2: you have an options that would not further harm your family
speaker 1: and
speaker 2: you have options that could end could end the cycle of addiction to power and control you can tell your mother that you will not accept her money and it's not okay for her to dictate to you where you're going to live and make sure that she forces you to with her money to live in a place that's going to harm your family off you can tell her that you'll accept the money if it goes to a plate but like an apartment that she's willing to cosign on you have that option and if you're not comfortable saying those words to her and that's a sure sign right there that there is inequity in the Power Balance between you and your mom and you shouldn't be getting in bed with her at all
speaker 1: did I upset you hey Dustin what
speaker 2: do you think that I'm trying to do something
speaker 1: bad to you I don't know
speaker 2: you know I don't desire for you to be without housing you know I won't stop you from coming to live here at Stanley Drive
speaker 1: and
speaker 2: you know there's a lot of emotionally healthy people who really really love you for you and not for you're being an extension of them and those are people that you like could call on at a time like this help you find a good living
speaker 1: situation right hey Dost what do
speaker 2: you think I'm different than I used to be I don't know
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: don't think that's true I think you know I
speaker 1: am okay I
speaker 2: think you know that like there's a difference in the Power Balance between you and I now that when you
speaker 1: try
speaker 2: to twist things around on me by blaming me or denying stuff or you know deflecting or changing the subject that it's not ever going to work again now that I see through it and if you feel like a relationship with a woman who's going to call you out on those behaviors every time is a relationship that you don't want any part in it would be healthy to say so
speaker 1: like sounds like you on the way you still there I'm here seems here too though and I've never said that I don't want to be with you if you just want me to say that you have an excuse to leave me
speaker 2: say that again Dustin
speaker 1: I've never said that I don't want to be with you you just want me to say that so you can leave me
speaker 2: alone no no no no I'm sorry. That's not at all I'm completely in agreement that you've never said that you don't want me dead I'm completely in agreement the difficulty is that you're actually completely in inescapable bondage too deeply ingrained habitual Behavior patterns of saying whatever you have to say and doing whatever you have to do to maintain control in a relationship and there's been a lot of very specific tactics life I've been able to point out to you that you just do like without even thinking even in the last 3 days there's been a lot of specific tactics that have been able to point out to you so I think that when you say that you want to be with me I think what you're saying is that you want to be with the me that you've always experienced in the past the one who who knows walks on eggshells to avoid some of those tactics or the one who changes her behavior you know to avoid being exposed to some of those tactics or the one who apologizes whenever she gets blamed for something that's really your fault or the one who feels bad about herself because she's obviously a Maggie wife and a dripping faucet and you'd be better off to live on a rooftop than with her you know the who's who takes those things on herself when really you're just actually doing selfish destructive things to your family I think you want the wife who cries because she is completely powerless and I'm not that person now and I'm never going to be that person again
speaker 1: and
speaker 2: you can't at this point pretend that you don't have those deeply ingrained habitual Behavior patterns of trying to maintain control that's that's that's something that you have so that being the case it's not really compatible with a wife who doesn't give in to those tactics so you might not
speaker 1: Warfare and why are you doing this to me
speaker 2: I I have said I want a divorce I filed for divorce not doing anything to you I'm just I'm taking the time to help you understand is it's you you need to know that I love you completely and you need to know that you can have mutually loving mutually sacrificial mutually trustworthy relationships in this world but we're at a point where you need to decide if you want to give up the power and control up to literally everything else that's not true that's not true or you just you just said that as a tactic you just said that to make me feel bad but it's not actually true
speaker 1: I'm seeing the actual sorry but I got to go
speaker 2: I know I'm saying that that given the
speaker 1: situation it's not good enough for you and I don't know how to give you any more
speaker 2: I'm not talking about wanting to give me more I'm talking about it is right now a given that you have this problem and you need to decide which way you're wanting to just go with it I don't know what you're talking about here and that's not true
speaker 1: you said you wanted a divorce I said I would give you literally everything I know it up saying like is
speaker 2: that I just need to understand that that's what you're pursuing your pursuing divorce in which you save face
speaker 1: by Thursday and I told you that you can have whatever you want I know but
speaker 2: obviously we are completely
speaker 1: really you know you've done
speaker 2: everything you've done everything you're you're abusive you're abusive or manipulative you're abusive you have a very very very real problem and so if you're saying that you would rather divorce than admit that you have a problem that's helpful information to
speaker 1: myself I got to go I guess
speaker 2: Dustin the behaviors that you've displayed toward me since you've checked in haven't been any different you still distorted the truth I've got to go and why
speaker 1: I've got to go to class I've gotten that listen to this anymore
speaker 2: I just you understand if we're divorcing I have to obviously
speaker 1: like I don't want a divorce so when you say if we're divorcing I
speaker 2: know but you're trying to play Both Sides at the same time you're switching you're switching like crazy Frank I told you I told you I'm giving you everything I told you that when the first thing I said I would
speaker 1: give you everything cuz you're
speaker 2: shifting Dustin blame-shifting me taking credit
speaker 1: for my decisions and Shifting the blame to
speaker 2: you woke up saying I am I am an abuser I am a predator I have abused you in every way that any psychologist would say it is possible for a man to abuse his wife and I am addicted I am absolutely addicted to Shifting the blame onto you to the point that I want to go around to pastors and tell them that we went in for marital counseling because my wife complains about me and my terrible Church leadership told her to divorce me like that's that's the extent to which you're willing to blame shift for your deeply ingrained predatory harmful behaviors you're still doing it right now in this conversation the fact that you checked into a facility does nothing to change the fact that you are still blame shifting onto me for some really dark ugly since I I shouldn't be having to own this divorce you shouldn't be asking me to own blame for this divorce that that's not a reasonable thing for you to expect me to take on that's not it's not
speaker 1: I would not divorce you and we have no biblical basis to divorce
speaker 2: okay but but you would abuse me have the basis for abuse show me in the Bible what's your biblical basis for abuse justify it with the scripture where you think you should be able to make sure why, but that's what you should be doing that's what you should be searching out what is my basis for Shifting the blame onto my wife what is the basis for me going to different people in Iraq telling them the part of the story that I want them to know for them to think that my wife is taking my children away from me or feel sorry for me that is abuse you are still doing it you do want me to take responsibility for all of this you do want to look like the hero is giving me everything no matter
speaker 1: anything that month you didn't do
speaker 2: yeah you want me to hold on marriage I think that's a pretty big one for the literally V most Anti divorce girl you could have found on the Dead face of this planet that's a that's a pretty big one
speaker 1: that's I mean
speaker 2: it's pretty ultimate honestly but I think what you're saying is that given the situation that I'm absolutely not under any circumstance even if we both live one hundred more years on this planet I'm never going to walk over to the perspective that I should give into these tactics or I should own the blame for stuff just cuz you have to blame for it like given the situation and new Dynamic anything remotely like
speaker 1: that ever thought that
speaker 2: I'm saying leaving me I'm saying hold on just a second I got to home sorry. I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth they were my words from my mouth my words from my mouth is that I'm never going to revert to being willing to take on blame for things that you asked me to take on blame for you know that I'm really good at filling for anything you want me to take blame for our relationship ending and I'm saying I'm not somebody who's going to do that just because you suck I'm going to from now on only take blame for things that
speaker 1: I
speaker 2: actually actually responsible for so for example I can own that I continued living with u and submitting to you when you were doing some really destructive things towards our children and I can know the damage they've done to our children and I can be sorrowful and remorseful and I can repent of that and I can change my ways because that's something that I objectively know that I did that is cause harm to our family that's the kind of thing I'm willing to own I'm not willing to own things just because you you put them on me for example I don't know a reasonable outcome of your abuse being Americans like I'm not going to own what was actually caused by your abuse month so I'm saying that being the case I think that this isn't exactly what you want in a relationship anymore I think the only thing you've ever wanted in a relationship with somebody who could blame shift on do and I'm not sure that so I think you're left with like find a different woman one who is as naive as I used to be a different woman you're
speaker 1: right off
speaker 2: or don't be in a relationship or actually repent and in therapy pursue the right thing which is identifying the wrong causes of of this Behavior I know but you're denying that you can't actually be working on it when you're pretending they're pissed honey I'm trying true that's true
speaker 1: that's not
speaker 2: true is it you wanting to blame me now this is not my fault I'm trying to blame you I'm saying you are you're saying you saying that it's because I won't talk to a therapist that's not the reasonable that's not a reasonable thing to blame for the fact that you're in denial about doing there's plenty of people who have laid a lot down to help you see it and honestly a lot of it off already see and you just don't want to admit because you would lose power and control by admitting it and also because you don't know another way of interacting
speaker 1: no problem but
speaker 2: I'm just saying it's kind of hard to play along with your fantasy world where your wife is unbiblical leaving you and you're a victim and oh no no no there's nothing more you can give her besides everything in settlement kind of hard for me to play along with that when I know the reality is that your pretending you want a relationship with me when in reality you want a relationship with a woman who is as naive as I used to be and that's somebody else not me
speaker 1: I want a relationship with you it's deeper than we've ever had before yeah
speaker 2: but you're still all wrapped up in these power and control tactics that shift blame on to me you know like I checked in with Jackie this weekend he told me what he really told you and he told me the
speaker 1: context and it's different from what I said
speaker 2: how well it turns out the elders took a team never asked you know to let me just I'm
speaker 1: hearing the what what now there's what
speaker 2: they never asked you to let me choose the time-sharing schedule as a team I did know in in the actual letter they didn't mention that they did ask you to give me full control of the finances and they did ask you to not go around talking to other people about the situation so for you to then pretend that letting me pick the time-sharing was one of the requirements and Jackie somehow ran against the team and said that they were giving you suck on wise counsel that was pretty manipulative of that situation because it may Jackie look bad for signing off on a well it made it sound like he signed off on a letter he didn't really agree with that's pretty manipulative
speaker 1: he told me he doesn't he was reluctant to
speaker 2: sign off on the letter cuz he wasn't comfortable with it he told me that when they gave it to me and he was literally the one that he was dead but he's not the one who like knows our situation but there's nothing in that letter that that you couldn't have followed the Council of and trust is Jack
speaker 1: it to the Council of the letter S I
speaker 2: know the fact that he weighed it heavily and he didn't just like oh okay they gave me this letter I'm going to sign off the fact that he like gave it the full consideration and the full weight loss was due like shows you that he took it seriously or something to use against him he is a godly man he told you that he could
speaker 1: trust him not trying to use anything against yeah you wrote a whole letter
speaker 2: about how they were all divided and not functioning as elders and that wasn't true at all divided the thing what they asked you to do in the letter was to not go around talking to other people about it and you decided to go to new help you have reached
speaker 1: totally untrustworthy to talk
speaker 2: to they work completely trustworthy Dustin because they know the actual situation and you're trying to paint them as being untrustworthy to get out of being accountable which is what it really comes down to is that you want a marriage in which you're not accountable to anybody not nobody not even God you want to be the be-all-end-all of your decision-making no matter who says that your wife and children are being harmed but you do want the accountability of a church to tell your wife that she's not allowed to escape your abuse that's what that's what you want to church for and that's all you've ever evidently wanted a church for anyways Jackie didn't give you any advice that one against the ladder cuz the letter didn't say anything about time sharing but you did go against the letter by going off talking to people about it who didn't know the whole story and only giving them the parts of it that painted you as a victim
speaker 1: I did not do
speaker 2: that you did you absolutely did yeah absolutely did you will have meal and you allowed to believe that we went in for marital counseling you're allowed Neil and you were allowed to head to believe that your wife was instructed to leave
speaker 1: you alone ever told anybody that you were instructed to leave
speaker 2: me did you make it clear that I wasn't
speaker 1: never asked me with your wife and instruct definitely
speaker 2: okay there are some things that you need to make abundantly clear as gigantic heavy she finds not that you need to wait for somebody to ask you're I'm just saying you're talking about a very trustworthy very Godly team of Elders with excellent discernment who take their role very seriously who study the Bible give it the full way to do in every situation I mean you you just cannot ask I don't think for for better group of people who you can trust that you can fax it to
speaker 1: but
speaker 2: to go and ask them you know whether you should have Cheerios or Fruit Loops for breakfast and then say that that proves that you should never take their advice about anything because they gave you the wrong answer
speaker 1: Xander's I never asked them something so
speaker 2: ridiculous you asked them whether I had a Biblical basis and you got different answers seem to be here the simplest breakfast it's actually much much much much worse much worse because having Cheerios are Fruit Loops is not something that might allow you to continue in your sin of abusing your wife so there's some pretty important context there too I know but the question is why would you ever ask that question why would he was abusing his wife asked the question of whether she should be forced them to remain subject to his abuse wouldn't a better solution be to just stop abusing I mean you're you're just being absolutely absurd and asking a question in the first place it's absurd especially coming from the perpetrator it's absurd and that's why they're not even talking about it. Then there's no need for them to talk about it they solve the problem by asking you to repent that's the obvious solution there what
speaker 1: you
speaker 2: didn't repent you you you you raised it a notch by doing the same thing to them by devaluing them and by dividing them and by any of them is untrustworthy and painting yourself as addicted and not just as me but of them I mean it's the same behavior but now you suck victims besides just me hello yep so my point is that it would be a lot less confusing for both of us moving forward if what we knew was that you don't under any circumstances ever want to have to admit any of that and it's easier for you to just go about your life force from all this accountability and insult and all the uncomfortableness of it if you're somebody who's better off like alone and independent and wise in your own eyes and accountable to God Alone like we can make decisions that are best for our children within that realm of reality and then I don't really understand what it is you're saying
speaker 1: that you sent me about to give up on you
speaker 2: well when I see you're going to make it in this world I mean that you're not going to kill yourself like if you decide if you decide that you want to live you can live your completely capable of that and yeah if you decide that you want to humble yourself and you want to be accountable The Godly men because you recognize that you have severe deficits of character like if you decide that you absolutely can do that you absolutely capable of that I I believe in you because you are really really strong and you are really really smart and you are really really committed and you are really really capable there there's there is still dead nobody in the world that I admire more than you you are I mean God made you absolutely amazing I'm
speaker 1: created to help me here what hello just to say that your created I help hear you think that you're treated to be my
speaker 2: helper yes and I'm sorry that I did so poorly at that you know obviously the lies and manipulations and the truth twisty thing really had me confused for a good Seventeen or eighteen years and I genuinely believed that going along with all your distortions was some thought God had called me too but the genuineness of my belief doesn't make it reality reality is that I was really harming you reality is that I was enabling you to sink further into your own delusions reality is it got worse it got a lot worse it got it got worse and worse and worse and I mean I I'm I'm absolutely sorry and again I'm I'm absolutely like willing phone that I don't I'm not a person who you know is adverse to accepting a claim or not able to own my part I understand now I understand now that being a helpmeet to somebody with some severe cognitive distortions is different than being a help meet to someone who is a humble and honest about their shortcomings and I now feel like I have a lot more clarity I have a lot more knowledge I have a lot more support I have a lot more ability to talk to other people and to talk to you in a way that honors truth and honors God and honors reality so I I absolutely can be a much much much much much much true or help to you than I ever was before
speaker 1: trying to be what you need to do to help me
speaker 2: but I'm just so I can be consistent just so I can be consistent in always pointing it out like when you say to me you're supposed to be a help meet to me like that is a tactic of trying to make me feel guilty for not going along with everything that you say it is a tactic that that's ultimate intent is to keep me in a cycle with abuse I don't want you to ever
speaker 1: I can't hear you I said that I ever ever ever want you to choose ever and it's
speaker 2: okay you gotta learn to recognize the ways you're doing it though
speaker 1: are forever I can't I need help I
speaker 2: know that's what we're doing we've got so many people helping you guys off like I'm here like I've been able to see you